I am painting some models to represent supply and MT trucks during their deployment to Indochina. If arm of service signs follow British Army standard colours/nomenclature I would give GP Transport Coys the following 70 (attached to 32 Bde), 71 (80 Bde) and 73 (100 Bde). But what happens to Div Trps Coy #72? OR. Are these four numbers allocated to the four supply Issue Sections and three other numbers used by the GP Transport Coys? Also given there are three Division level combat units, Div Recce, Div HQ Bn and Div Cavalry what numbers here? I'm guessing 41 & 44 (on film footage) for Recce and Cavalry both on Green/Blue. But the Div HQ Bn? What AoS did this have? Thanks in advance John
John, There is the possibility that Indian Infantry Divisions used different serial numbers on their arm of service signs than those used by the British equivalents. I suggest this very tentatively as far as Indian-based formations are concerned, as I only have examples from formations deployed in Italy in 1944. From a document giving the 8th Army Order of Battle as at 17th April 1944: 4th British Infantry Division 40 - HQ Commander 4th Infantry Division RASC 72 473rd Divisional Troops Company 70 21st Infantry Brigade Company 71 44th Infantry Brigade Company 73 509th Infantry Brigade Company 78th British Infantry Division 40 - HQ RASC 78th Infantry Division 71 57th11th Infantry Brigade Company 70 237th/38th Infantry Brigade Company 73 294th/36th Infantry Brigade Company 72 328th Infantry Division Troops Company Whereas, the 8th Indian Infantry Division is as follows: 67 - HQ RIASC 8th Indian Division 69 17th Indian Infantry Brigade Transport Company 95 19th Indian Infantry Brigade Transport Company 74 21st Indian Infantry Brigade Transport Company 49 8th Indian Infantry Division Troops Transport Company ?? 8th Indian Infantry Division HQ Transport Section For other units you mentioned - Divisional units, the same document has: 77? 6th Lancers (Div armoured regiment) 51 5/5th Mahratta's (Div MG bn) 10th Indian Infantry Division for November 1944 however adds to the confusion has: 41 1st Horse (Div armoured troops) 64 1st Northumberland Fusiliers (Div MG bn) 40 - HQ Commander 10th Indian Infantry Division RIASC ?? 10th Indian Infantry Division HQ Transport Section 72 10th Indian Infantry Division Troops Transport Company 70 10th Indian Infantry Brigade Transport Company 71 20th Indian Infantry Brigade Transport Company 73 25th Indian Infantry Brigade Transport Company I appreciate that this is not evidence of the serials used by Indian Infantry Divisions in India, nor whether the serials used would remain unchanged after the war. However, it suggests that a different list of serials might have been used at some time, other than those used by British formations. Steve
Thanks Steve Most interesting. Its seems that the 10th was using the standard (British Army) AoS system by winter of 44. I wonder if the 8th was using an earlier Indian Army or Middle East system which they hadn't got round to updating? Does anyone have AoS for Middle East 42/43 Infantry Division? There are going to be several differences between British and Indian Army AoS systems as a Division operating in Burma contained an alternate structure. There are for example 10 Infantry Battalions and RIASC had more units than a European based Infantry Division (Four Supply Issue Sections and three GP Transport Coy, all from '42 onwards). Has anyone got In an earlier thread on the division there is some footage showing Division vehicle participating in a parade (20th Division 1945 | WW2Talk (post 75)). The Artillery unit is showing 'expected' AoS number (43) for a second RA Regt within an Infantry Division. This matches 114 Regt RA's listing within the Division. The A/C and Tanks seem to show 44 on a horizontal split background. This matches their AoS listed when the 16th Cav were 14th Army troops but without the 'Army' bar underneath. This latter is troubling as 44 might usually be allocated to third artillery Regt, in the case 23rd Indian Mountain, which did travel to Saigon. Since the AC Regt doesn't appear to show any Formation sign it maybe a local expedient to have two units in same division with same AoS as they are functionally very different and thus easily recognisable. Also there's only one major combat HQ in control. Any further info would be excellent TIA John
It's a bit of a tangent but 8 Ind Div's system is broadly in line with the MEF Inf Div serials from May 1942 (Hodges & Taylor). However, its 77 is one of the Bde Gp's Provost units. There is no recce element. The Oct 42 table is for a Mixed Div - 2x inf bdes and 1x armd bde reuses many of the same serials for equivalent units but its Armd Car Regt is 77.
Idler beat me to it .... the 8th Indian Division systems does correspond to the the "Standard Unit Sign" system for use within MEF, dated 2nd May 1942. See the attached files. My next question is why and when the 10th Indian Infantry Division adopted a different system? Steve
So.... to answer my own question, it seems that the 10th Indian Infantry Division was using the AoS system used as the standard adopted by 15th Army Group, from July 1943. (according to Hodges and Taylor). This system was adopted for the invasion of Sicily. The British component, 8th Army, with a mixture of previous 8th and 1st Army formations. Vehicle marking policy was issued on 5th July 1943, stating that all formations under command of what was then known as Force 141 (the precursor to 15th Army Group) were to be standardised "as soon as practical", on the basis of a War Office letter date 16th February 1943. With a few changes, these serials were those already in used by First Army in North Africa. Before arriving in Italy, the 8th Indian Division had served with neither the 1st nor the 8th Armies.
I had a feeling about this. Sadly don't have Hodges and Taylor (or a spare kidney to buy one). I'm going off Dick Taylor's Warpaint Vol3. But the two table just posted are very valuable, Thanks BTW Is there a three infantry division in Italy 1944 list? cheeky I know but pertinent to the initial question which is about Indian Infantry in 1945.
Yeah interestingly 8th had come from India straight to Middle East Command, but the out-of-the-way bit fighting in Persia/Iraq/Syria and Lebanon before moving to Italy. So may have retained MEC regulations? Additionally it was reformed several times swapping units with 10th Indian Div prior to committing to action. Again the AoS may be an ad-hoc of what was and what is?
The complication with Far Eastern Indian Divs is the number of different types of Inf Div. At the very least we might be looking at A & MT, MT, AT, Standard or possibly even Light.
Below is the 10th Indian Infantry Division for November 1944. It is using the same system as defined in July 1943 (see above).
Brilliant thanks. This very much matches the TOE of unit types I have for 20th. Just trying to sort out the Supply Issue Sections placement with Div structure.
There is a multiplicity of Divisional types for sure but I this by 1945 20 Div was an MT - The Mule Companies not crossing the Irrawaddy and a transfer of vehicles from erm 2nd (British) Div? or 36? Top of head I can't remember one of them was going back to UK as a result of Python.
