Returned application.

Discussion in 'Service Records' started by sligoglaswegian, Jul 23, 2015.

  1. amberdog45

    amberdog45 Senior Member

    John, the Glasgow Herald is free to search on the Google newspaper archive news.google.com.

    Issues from 1942 seem to list birth, marriage and death announcements on the first page which will make your search a lot easier. There is no search function, just a case of looking from date of death onwards in each issue.
    .
     
  2. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Senior Member

    Hi John,

    Thanks for explaining why I got no answer yesterday afternoon - no mention of shorter-than-usual office hours in their letters to my dad and his notes specifically log, on Fri 15 Feb 2008, being called by them at 9:45am and his ringing them back at 4:30pm !

    It later occurred to me that a slightly more laborious way for their agent to limit data overload, if they couldn't simply leave the year blank to check all 16 Nov matches, would be to progressively roll back - 16 Nov 1920, 16 Nov 1919 &c - esp. with 1920 an odds on favourite for merely needing your dad to stop short of adding the concluding "one" when reciting the date and because, if need be, it would have been so relatively easy to forge a written figure '1' into a '0'.

    As for last ditch spreadsheet methodology, they'd have to do that because they can't very well release such sensitive info to Joe Public. This was why I tried ringing - to discover the limitations of their database and suggest workarounds (I used to work in Government IT support so pretty much know what poorly-designed software to expect from cash-strapped tender exercises by 'bean counters' under-appreciating requirement). Spreadsheet export may not even be an option for all I know right now - simply based on my 2009 dealings with CWGC who could not only do that back then but who's website even now allows everyone to do so for themselves. I'll try to remember to ring them again on Monday - hoping the Friday hours you cite to be core throughout the week ...

    Finally re the Scottish Register, albeit last updated 14 Sep 2011, you may find this enlightening:

    Steve
     
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  3. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member

    Can I just say that I have been impressed by the forum members efforts in trying to help John with this predicament. I hope this will eventually lead to him tracing his father's records.

    Well done everyone and good luck John.
     
  4. sligoglaswegian

    sligoglaswegian Active Member

    Amberdog,
    Thanks for the info re the glasgow herald I'll certainly have a look at that.
    Steve,
    The working hours for kentigern house,
    Mon-Thursday,10.00-12.00 & 14.00-16.00
    Fri 10.00-12.00
     
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  5. sligoglaswegian

    sligoglaswegian Active Member

    A big hear hear from me for bamboo43's post
     
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  6. amberdog45

    amberdog45 Senior Member

    Hi John,

    Sorry I overlooked your question about the ID register. It will not list other family members unfortunately. I believe it took place to identify who was in the UK and the information was used also to issue ration cards and it became the data used to eventually set up the NHS post war. Any luck with the Glasgow Herald?
     
  7. sligoglaswegian

    sligoglaswegian Active Member

    Amber dog

    Thanks again for your info.
    Re the glasgow herald,I had to put my laptop in for a bit of t l c this afternoon,and the newspaper images don't come up too well on my phone(blurred when I magnify the page)so I'll have to wait till midweek to have a better look at the herald archives.
    Thanks again for your time. John.
     
  8. sligoglaswegian

    sligoglaswegian Active Member

    Just a thought,my dad was born on16/11/21 when would he have been old enough to enlist.

    Cheers.
     
  9. sligoglaswegian

    sligoglaswegian Active Member

    Can an extract from the id register be ordered over the phone?only I see there is an extract ordering service with a phone number at the top of the application page.
     
  10. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Give them a ring and see what they say. When I rang the guy I spoke to was very helpful. Explain you think his date of birth maybe wrong on their records as there's a possibility he may of lied about his age etc.
     
  11. sligoglaswegian

    sligoglaswegian Active Member

    Hi drew,I already rang kentigern house ,in my last post I was asking if I could ring the number on the page for applying for an entry from the 1939 ID list.
     
  12. amberdog45

    amberdog45 Senior Member

    Hi John,

    The Extract Ordering Service number is 0131 314 4411.

    I had a look through the Glasgow Herald last night and could find no death notice in May 1942 for your uncle John. It was worth a try.
     
  13. sligoglaswegian

    sligoglaswegian Active Member

    Hi,thanks for the phone number,can I order an extract over the phone? Thanks again for looking through the herald,
     
  14. amberdog45

    amberdog45 Senior Member

    Hi John, I think your only obstacle ordering via the phone is if your father died outside of Scotland. Then you would have to send the death cert. I've only ever ordered via the post but can't see phoning would be a problem. If he died in Scotland and you provided the date of death they will be able to verify this via the general register of deaths for Scotland.
     
  15. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Senior Member

    Just a quick sit. rep. of work in progress ...

    This is nuts - just been onto Civil Secretariat (Mail Point 400 on 0141 224 2744) who tell me their database merely consists of:
    * Surname & initials - no full forenames !
    * Service Number
    * Date of Birth
    They claim not to be able to:
    * export to spreadsheet - not much point, anyway, if so little data !
    * find any J Dochertys born in 1921/20
    They claim to have one 1919-born J Docherty but unbelievably not with brother John's service #.

    So I've been trying to ring MS Support (Mail Point 555 on 0141 224 5126) instead, because the printouts my dad received from them are far more detailed - see below - but just getting permanently engaged there:
    * Name - full !
    * Army Number
    * Rank on Discharge
    * Date of Birth
    * Date of Enlistment
    * Corps/Regiment - progressive list
    * Date of Discharge
    * Reserve Service - progressive list
    This is evidently a different and altogether more useful database such as we need to help - presumably just a case of finding the right contact to benefit from it ... I'll keep trying for an answer from MS Support ...

    I've been working on the hypothesis that John & James enlisted together on 20 Feb '39 - when John was 19 & James still only 17 (so presumably wanting to seem 18) - but I'm just now wondering if they maybe unusually posed as twins instead to thus partly square with the aforesaid non-John 1919 entry.

    Steve

    PS: Just rung SSAFA, who've given me 3 more APC #s to try this afternoon ...
     
  16. sligoglaswegian

    sligoglaswegian Active Member

    Amber dog,
    I rang the Scottish records office this morning to order the extract from the 1939 I'd list but you can't order these over the phone,you have to fill in the form and apply by post.

    Steve,
    Many thanks for enquiring on my behalf,it does seem to be a very outdated system if they can't even narrow the search by Christian name,or country of birth.i was on the phone to them myself this morning and was told there was far too many j docherty' listed for them to go through as they have to pay for every file they order.
     
  17. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Senior Member

    OK, I finally got through to MP555 (via Army Personnel Centre Disclosures Helpdesk on 0345 600 9663+3+1) and it turns out the extra info on the letter they sent my dad was not from any database but typed up into a standard letter template from his physical file - so there is only the one (Mickey Mouse) database from which they have all to work. Some people, however, are cannier database navigators than others and I've been advised to advise you, John, to now ask after the J Docherty they have as born 16 Nov 1919 - my contact incidentally more plausibly confirming being also able to see your uncle John's entry there. It therefore seems John & James enlisted separately as I'd otherwise expect two brothers claiming to have been born 18 days apart to have set recruitment alarm bells ringing !

    Over to you,
    Steve

    PS: Don't forget you're lucky enough to have already got John's record for them to compare the NoK details & addresses to make sure you've got the right James - possibly also renderable, BTW, as Jim/Jas/Seamus.
     
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  18. sligoglaswegian

    sligoglaswegian Active Member

    steve.
    once again thankyou very much for giving your time and patience (and a big dollop of determination) to this wee conundrum.
    is your advice that i re-apply for the records but give the 16/11/19 dob? or ring them again to confirm this record exists? would they be able to bring that record up on their screen to compare nok details while i am on the phone?
    sorry for all the questions.

    regards,john.
     
  19. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Senior Member

    To elaborate, John, I got the 1919 DoB from two different ladies at APC - first time around via one of SSAFA's #s which all turned out to be inappropriately for 'Disclosures 1' (who dish out references for ex-Army personnel needing them to get jobs, buy houses, etc). I soon established that she had the same old minimal database as established in the morning but she was keen to help so I let her and thus she was the first to offer me this likely date.

    But still in hope of finding someone with access to the illusory better database, to be as sure as I could reasonably be before reporting back to you, I then rang the helpdesk # I'd got from JPAC after ringing SSAFA. This 2nd lady was very familiar with age falsification issues and felt confident enough, after turning up the same info etc, to recommend you re-apply. She confirmed what you said about having to order up the file to see if it was the right one - a process you'd need to initiate by re-application. I even asked to make sure they'd be willing to thus go out on a limb to test our theory for you and was roundly assured YES. We didn't discuss the process in detail but I assumed, in any case, you'd need to satisfy yourself by ringing to clear the nitty gritty with them. I sadly forgot to ask her name but the key thing is that she was with Kentigern House's Mail Point 555 team (MS* Support Division, Parliamentary & Disclosures Branch, Historical Disclosures Section) and not their apparently less helpful Mail Point 400 team (Civil Secretariat, Historical Disclosures) to whom you normally send the form. I'd thus recommend you ring the MP555 team who may, for all I know as the real brains behind the Historical Disclosures system, tell you to bypass MP400 straight to them as a special (been mucked about enough already) case. "Don't ask, don't get" as they say ;)
    * MS = Military Secretary

    As Lesley said, in post 2, "they do make a lot of mistakes :mad:" and I can back that up by also quoting an internal message copied to my dad. 'Mod Form 670' (request for documents) from 'Historical Disclosures MP 555' to Derbyshire-based 'TNT Archive Service' - "PLEASE PROVIDE PERSONAL FILE (NOT PENSION FILE) TO ADDRESS ABOVE" (their use of capitals & underline stressing mistake already made).

    So, to summarise, ring 0345 600 9663+3+1 to discuss procedure with MP 555. Even they won't initially be able to do much more than maybe tell you the candidate's service # until they order up & receive the file. It's rather like the quandary faced by family historians sometimes having to blindly order up several likely marriage certificates in order to find out which, if indeed any, is the right one - a pot luck process which can become rather expensive and thus one I can fully understand cash-strapped APC wanting to avoid wherever possible and hence your original application being turned down.

    Hope, for all its verbosity, that's a bit clearer,
    Steve
     
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  20. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    John, I hope you're persistence pays off.. I would also like to say a big thank-you, to the forum members who have taken part in this post.
    Looking forward to seeing your Old man's record's..

    Stu.
     
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