Reserve Coys

Discussion in 'RASC' started by Brian Smith, Oct 28, 2013.

  1. Brian Smith

    Brian Smith Junior Member

    Now we have a RASC section thought I would post this note I put up a few weeks a go and see if anyone can help.


    Just a simple question from a simple mind on Reserve Coys if I may – may seem obvious but sometimes I need things spelling out for me.


    Dad was with the 13 Reserve MT Coy RASC. Why were Coys set up as “Reserve” the 13 RMT Coy appears to have been deployed on active service –initially 8 months in UK and then as part of MEF to North Africa. The war diary from December 40 to June 41 and from September 41 is missing so I am unaware if the troops were gradually transferred to other Coys, the Coy was renamed or how it reached its demise. Can anyone help please with the generalities or specifics.


    Thank you

    Brian
     
  2. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Brian,

    I thought that they were called Reserve MT Companies as they were originally Territorial Army units. On the other hand, perhaps they were called "Reserve" to separate them from 1st line (i.e divisional) RASC units and were later changed to General Transport Companies. I'll keep an eye open for an explanation for you.

    Cheers

    Tom
     
  3. Brian Smith

    Brian Smith Junior Member

    Tom thank you, this coy appears to have been was set up from scratch as a reserve coy, cheers Brian

    Just a few lines from the war diary;

    17.3.40 Setting up of 13 Reserve Motor Transport Company; Commanding officer arrived Leatherhead to prepare for arrival of men.

    18.3.40 Visited Paymaster Eastern Command. Arrange to collect from 2 V.R.D. 3 cars, 3 30cwt lorries and 2 motor cycles. Advised Police Superintendent that billets for 480 troops required.

    19.3.40 Visited Mobile Control Centre to arrange rations, clothing, cooking equipment, petrol, oil, medical arrangements, laundry etc. Arranged to take over 2 500 gallon pumps from Thornes Garage Ltd. Arranged with Paymaster amenities grant 3/6 per head, officers and sergeants mess grants 30/- and 20/- per head. Visited Ashstead area to look at police billets, not satisfactory.

    20.3.40 Visited Slough to arrange for vehicles collected at 50 per day from 26.3.40. Collected 1 4 seater car, 2 2 seater cars and 1 30 cwt lorry. Arranged for house in Linden to be HQ.

    28.3.40 13 Reserve Motor Transport Company, Leatherhead; Posted as driver from 10 DTC Cromer arrived 17.15 hrs registered and billeted by 01.30hrs

    9.6.40 Move of Headquarters to Hereford.

    2.8.40 Move of Headquarters to Chester.

    12.10.40 Company receives Embarkation Orders.

    25.10.40 Granted 7 days embarkation leave.

    They were still being referred to in war diary as 13 RMT in July\Aug 1941

    example

    23.7.41 Orders received to move to Abbassia- advance party leave. Additional transport 2nd Cliestier Reg from Camp 38 and 6th Batalion DLI to Quassassin Railway Station.

    24.7.41 Transportation of 151 Brigade and transportation of 151 Bde HQ from Camp 15, 8th DCI from Camp 18 and 72 Field Reg RA from Camp 10 to Quasassin Railway

    25.7.41 Company packing in preparation for move to Abbassia.

    26.7.41 Abbassia; Company move location: the old barracks had actually been used and built by Napoleon when he occupied Egypt in around 1805. The only drawback to the barracks was that bed bugs were rather prominent. 2 FGCSM in Quassassin 1 Driver and 1 NCO regarding loss of rifle. Company

    27.7.41 Digging in at new location

    28.7.41 51 troops leave to join No 1 Reserve MT Company – meeting at Mex crosssroads.

    29.7.41 Kilo 9 Cairo; Company move location

    8.8.41 Warren Camp, Abbassia; Moving 3 Battalian Libyan Arab Force to Wadi El Natroon and Aminiya Company moving to Kilo 9 Mena

    20.8.41 To Suez to move petrol from Transit Dump by Shell Refinery
     
  4. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Reserve might also mean that they

    My thought is that they were 'under War Office control', not under a field formation (e.g. Army or Corps) to be allocated as necessary, but not found anything concrete on this.

    However, one definite fact is that 'Field Force MT Units' were reorganised and redesignated from August 41. Many specialist MT Coys - including Reserve MT Coys - were re-established as GT Coys. That ties in very neatly with the 'missing' war diaries from Sep 41 onwards. It's possible that some Coys were renumbered as well as redesignated, if they weren't broken up.
     
  5. Brian Smith

    Brian Smith Junior Member

    Idler thank you, the coy came under Easter Command whilst in England but I can find no reference in the July and August 1941 records of reporting to any other unit\Division etc so that is possible but surely they would be subordinate to someone. Cheers Brian
     
  6. Brigsy

    Brigsy Active Member

    Whilst I can't comment specifically on 16 Res MT Coy, what Idler says about the Res Coy's being re-organised in to GT Coy's makes sense of my own fathers service. He served with 24 Res Coy from 18/9/40 to 31/10/41, his service record then recording that he joined 347 GT Coy from 1/11/41. As the only war diary available for 24 Res Coy covers the period 1/9/40 to 31/10/41 and the first diary available for 347 GT Coy begins on the 1/11/41 it does appear that one could have morphed in to the other. As I don't yet have the relevant war diaries I can't be 100% sure that this is the case but in light of Idlers post it does seem most likely.
     
  7. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    Some time since I studied the earlier war period. I think the following is relevant to this enquiry.

    War Establishment IV/1931/44. Reserve Motor Transport Company RASC.

    Consisting of a headquarters, a workshop section and four transport sections, each capable of carrying the marching personnel of four rifle battalions or three rifle battalions plus other troops and stores.

    This seems to fit with moving a brigade as mentioned in the War Diary.

    Seems to be a LoC unit.

    Later the RASC MT companies were simplified and the many different establishments reduced to one basic one with increments for different types.

    Mike
     
  8. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    From my now defunct website.

    RESERVE MOTOR TRANSPORT COMPANY
    War Establishment IV/1931/44/2
    This company consists of a headquarters, a workshop section and four transport sections. Each section is capable of carrying the marching personnel of a rifle battalion. The company is capable of carrying the marching personnel of four battalions, or of three battalions plus other troops and a quantity of stores i.e. a brigade.

    Major
    5 X Captain
    5 X Subaltern
    Mechanist Serjeant Major
    Company Serjeant Major
    Mechanist Staff Serjeant
    company quartermaster serjeant
    10 X serjeant
    3 X serjeant artificer
    29 X corporal
    3 X corporal artificer
    24 X driver mechanic
    349 X driver IC
    48 X artificer

    3 X blacksmith
    3 X carpenter and joiner
    5 X clerk technical MT
    coach trimmer
    3 X coppersmith
    24 X driver mechanic
    10 X electrician
    27 X fitter
    3 X turner

    2 X administrative corporal
    24 X corporal in charge of sub sections
    278 X driver IC for vehicles
    18 X driver IC for motorcycles
    batman
    10 X batman driver
    butcher
    3 X clerk technical MT
    11 X cook
    18 X lmg detachment
    2 X officers mess orderly
    orderly
    2 X police (including a corporal)
    3 X sanitary dutyman
    storeman
    2 X water dutyman

    Two men are trained in first aid.

    65 X pistol
    417 X rifle
    6 X lmg
    6 X AT rifle

    54 X motorcycle
    10 X car 2 seater
    1 X car 4 seater
    6 X 1ton lorry
    11 X 30cwt lorry
    148 X 3ton lorry
    2 X 3ton 6 X 4 breakdown
    3 X 3ton 6 X 4 workshop
    3 X 3ton 6 X 4 stores

    Headquarters
    Major
    Subaltern
    Company Serjeant Major
    company quartermaster serjeant
    2 X serjeant

    administrative corporal
    9 X driver IC for vehicles
    2 X driver IC for motorcycles
    batman
    batman driver
    butcher
    3 X clerk technical MT
    3 X cook
    6 X lmg detachment (including a corporal)
    2 X officers mess orderly
    orderly
    2 X police (including a corporal)
    3 X sanitary dutyman
    storeman
    2 X water dutyman

    7 X pistol
    37 X rifle
    2 X lmg
    2 X AT rifle

    5 X motorcycle
    1 X car 2 seater
    1 X car 4 seater
    2 X 1ton lorry
    3 X 30cwt lorry (for cooks, baggage and one spare)
    1 X 3ton lorry (for petrol distribution)
    2 X 3ton 6 X 4 breakdown

    4 X Section (A, B, C and D)
    Headquarters
    Captain
    Subaltern
    2 X serjeant

    2 X driver IC for vehicles
    4 X driver IC for motorcycles
    2 X batman driver
    2 X cook
    3 X lmg detachment

    8 X pistol
    9 X rifle
    1 X lmg
    1 X AT rifle

    6 X motorcycle
    2 X car 2 seater
    1 X 1ton lorry
    2 X 30cwt lorry (cooks and baggage)

    1 Sub section
    To carry the marching personnel of the headquarters company of a rifle battalion and to provide three spare lorries.
    corporal
    driver mechanic
    8 X driver IC
    6 X 3ton lorry GS

    2 Sub section
    To carry the marching personnel of the headquarters company of a rifle battalion.
    corporal
    driver mechanic
    11 X driver IC
    6 X 3ton lorry GS

    3 Sub section
    To carry the marching personnel of a rifle company.
    corporal
    driver mechanic
    11 X driver IC
    6 X 3ton lorry GS

    4 Sub section
    To carry the marching personnel of a rifle company.
    corporal
    driver mechanic
    11 X driver IC
    6 X 3ton lorry GS

    5 Sub section
    To carry the marching personnel of a rifle company.
    corporal
    driver mechanic
    11 X driver IC
    6 X 3ton lorry GS

    6 Sub section
    To carry the marching personnel of a rifle company.
    corporal
    driver mechanic
    11 X driver IC
    6 X 3ton lorry GS

    Mike
     
  9. Brian Smith

    Brian Smith Junior Member

    All thank you for all of this I find it very interesting. I suppose it is possible the Coy ceased to exist but I wonder why nothing is recorded in the July\Aug 1941 diary about orders etc for the future of the troop. Also as seen in the copy of the page from service record there is still mention of 13 RMT in September. I cannot make out the stamp at left hand side of the entry Brian
     

    Attached Files:

  10. Brian Smith

    Brian Smith Junior Member

    I have been trawling through the limited number of war diaries I hold and note that Major D J Smith was writing the war diary for 13 RMT Coy in Aug 41 and for 278 GT Coy in Jan 42 (278 Coy noted as under 8th Army)- may be coincidence but could also as already mentioned above be that the Coy just changed its name. Unfortunately I have no records for the period September to December 41.

    Brian
     
  11. Brian Smith

    Brian Smith Junior Member

    Just an update on this. Andy has just sent me a copy of the war diary for 278 GT Coy for Jan- June and Sep-Dec 1941. What a surprise this is the missing13 RMT Coy diary and covers the missing period. A note on 1 November 1941 says the Coy is becoming a General Transport Company and from then on is referred to as 278 MT Coy.

    Lots more to read through and if anything seems of general interest will post.

    Brian
     
  12. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

  13. Brian Smith

    Brian Smith Junior Member

    Andreas - Yes thank you very much, just when I thought things were becoming a bit clearer!

    I don't know enough yet to put the information on the link in to context but worry a bit that it refers to NZ RMT Coys etc. and wonder if they were set up the same as the British ones or is that a red herring for me at this stage.

    Lots more to learn. Cheers Brian
     
  14. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    Brian, hi.

    Let me clear this up a bit, since I wrote it. It refers to RMTs in general, not just the New Zealanders. It just so happens that the New Zealanders are the easiest accessible source online. I see no reason why the New Zealand RMTs would be on a different war establishment from the British ones.

    What I in particular wanted to note however was that the name change at the time seems to have been from GTC to RMT (see the table halfway down).

    All the best

    Andreas
     
  15. Brian Smith

    Brian Smith Junior Member

    Hi Andeas just this seems to be the other way round - set off as 13 RMT Coy and changed to 278 GT Coy. I cannot upload war diary page as document is too large but entry reds as 1 November 1941 - War establishment revised the unit becomes a General Transport Coy with a strength of 395 all ranks.

    Cheers Brian
     
  16. Brian Smith

    Brian Smith Junior Member

    The NZ RMTs are referred to as Mechanical Transport Coys, the British as Motor Transport Coys - am I doing as usual and making too much of this or would there be a difference in responsibilities. Cheers Brian
     
  17. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    Hi Brian

    It appears to me that name changes went in both directions, so there was not a general renaming going on from RMT to GTC at the time at least (I understand you're not suggesting that). In a December document I can find 278 company under 13 Corps, and 14, 15, 19 companies as well.

    Does anyone know the difference between the establishment of a RMT and a GTC?

    All the best

    Andreas
     

    Attached Files:

  18. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    I think you make too much of it. I have seen reference to 'mechanical' transport in an RAF document. It seems to be the same thing.

    All the best

    Andreas
     
  19. Brigsy

    Brigsy Active Member

    Having just received the diaries for 1940/41 for the 24th Res Coy from Andy I can confirm a similar story here as the company as I had suspected went on to become the 347 GT Coy.

    The company was formed on the 12th Sept 40 and surprisingly the first mention of 347 is very early on the cover page (Army Form A3091) for Dec 40 which reads "24th Reserve MT Coy R.A.S.C. (347 Coy)". Does this mean that they would have had a dual designation from day 1 in Sept?
    Mention of 347 does not appear again until Apr 41 when it also then starts to appear on the War Diary (Army F C2118) pages as well although it appears to be a bit hit or miss appearing some months but not others.
    The cover page for Oct 41 finally reverses the designation as it now reads "347th General Transport Company (formerly 24th Reserve MT Coy)" all references to 24 finally disappearing from the Dec entries.

    My Father joined the 24th(347th) 6 days after they were formed in Swindon staying with them until Oct 1945 in Austria.
     
  20. papas

    papas New Member

    Hi there, my grandfather William Stevenson T/167494 was attested to the service on 16 February 1940. He joined his training unit, 165 Driver Training Company Royal Army Service Corps on 1st March 1940. He was posted to the 13th RMT RASC on 28th March 1940. With 13RMT, he left the UK on 6 January 1941 for service overseas. Disembarked in middle east with his unit on 10th March 1941. Embarked Alexandria with 13 RMT for Greece on 5 April 1941. Embarked Greece and disembarked Egypt 28.4.41

    He was taken POW during the fall of Tobruk on 20.6.1942 and was serving with 278 Company RASC.

    He ended up at POW camp 4F Hartmannsdorf-Chemnitz Germany where he spent the rest of the war. His POW number was 250631.

    I would appreciate any info on him or his unit.

    Thanks for the info thus far, especially that the 13RMT became the 278 Coy RASC.

    Craig Stevenson
     

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