Remembering Today 7/7/41 Civilian: Special Constable,John Cussock O'Brien.

Discussion in 'Remembering Today' started by CL1, Jul 7, 2016.

  1. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

  2. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

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  3. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Probate is not certain about how he died

    England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1966
    31874_222538-00107.jpg


    England & Wales, Death Index, 1916-2007
    Name: John C O'Brien
    Birth Date: abt 1883
    Date of Registration: Sep 1941
    Age at Death: 58
    Registration district: Yarmouth
    Inferred County: Norfolk
    Volume: 4b
    Page: 4

    TD
     
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  4. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    If interested - 1911 census:

    Name: John O'Brien
    Age in 1911: 27
    Estimated birth year: abt 1884
    Relation to Head: Son-in-law
    Gender: Male
    Birth Place: Kildysart, Resident, Clare
    Civil Parish: Great Yarmouth
    Search Photos: Search for 'Great Yarmouth' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
    County/Island: Norfolk
    Country: England
    Street address: 7 Whettleton Place, Northgate St, Great Yarmouth
    Marital Status: Married
    Occupation: Army Pensioner Warehouseman
    Registration district: Yarmouth
    Registration District Number: 219
    Sub-registration district: Yarmouth Northern
    ED, institution, or vessel: 6
    Household schedule number: 265
    Piece: 11082
    Household Members:
    Name Age
    Mary Ann Barber 57
    John O'Brien 27
    Gertrude Agnes O'Brien 25
    Patricia Mary O'Brien 4

    rg14_11082_0531_03.jpg

    From this I would guess he had already served in the Army at this time

    TD
     
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  5. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index, 1837-1915

    Name: John O'Brien
    Registration Year: 1906
    Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
    Registration district: Yarmouth
    Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
    Inferred County: Norfolk
    Volume: 4b
    Page: 64
    Records on Page:
    Name
    Gertrude Agnes Barber
    John O'Brien
    Richard Stockman
    Selina Mary Woodrow


    TD
     
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  6. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    Gravestone at Caister New Cemetery of Victoria Ellen Elizabeth Smith, a Wren serving at HMS Watchful, who died in a German bombing raid on 7 July 1941. Her husband Stanley, an Air Raid Warden, died in the same attack.
    http://www.rnhgy.org.uk/index.asp?pageid=385947

    BARHAM, NELLIE CHARLOTTE Civilian 07/07/1941 35 Civilian War Dead United Kingdom GREAT YARMOUTH, COUNTY BOROUGH

    BARHAM, RUSSELL HENRY Civilian 07/07/1941 38 Civilian War Dead United Kingdom GREAT YARMOUTH, COUNTY BOROUGH

    LEECH, HARRY BENJAMIN Civilian 07/07/1941 14 Civilian War Dead United Kingdom GREAT YARMOUTH, COUNTY BOROUGH

    LEECH, MATILDA ELIZABETH Civilian 07/07/1941 48 Civilian War Dead United Kingdom GREAT YARMOUTH, COUNTY BOROUGH

    MAGNUS, PATRICIA MARY Civilian 07/07/1941 34 Civilian War Dead United Kingdom GREAT YARMOUTH, COUNTY BOROUGH

    O'BRIEN, GERTRUDE AGNES Civilian 07/07/1941 59 Civilian War Dead United Kingdom GREAT YARMOUTH, COUNTY BOROUGH

    O'BRIEN, JOHN CUSSOCK Civilian 07/07/1941 58 Civilian War Dead United Kingdom GREAT YARMOUTH, COUNTY BOROUGH

    SMITH, STANLEY ARCHER Civilian 07/07/1941 37 Civilian War Dead United Kingdom GREAT YARMOUTH, COUNTY BOROUGH

    STONE, ALICE GERTRUDE Civilian 07/07/1941 51 Civilian War Dead United Kingdom GREAT YARMOUTH, COUNTY BOROUGH

    STONE, HERBERT Civilian 07/07/1941 60 Civilian War Dead United Kingdom GREAT YARMOUTH, COUNTY BOROUGH

    STONE, RICHARD JOHN Civilian 07/07/1941 18 Civilian War Dead United Kingdom GREAT YARMOUTH, COUNTY BOROUGH
     
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  7. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    So, in addition, his wife and daughter Patricia Mary (see TD's 1911 Census details), also died...
    MAGNUS, PATRICIA MARY. Rank: Civilian. Date of Death: 07/07/1941. Age: 34.
    Reporting Authority: GREAT YARMOUTH, COUNTY BOROUGH.
    Additional Information: A.R.P. Telephonist; of 7 Whittleton Place, Northgate Street.
    Daughter of John Cussock O'Brien and Gertrude Agnes O'Brien; wife of Arthur Leonard Magnus. Died at 7 Whittleton Place.

    It looks as if their home was 7, Whittleton Place, therefore likely that John was off duty at the time of the raid.

    The other casualties above are all parts of families torn apart by that raid.
     
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  8. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Stupid question

    CL1's post 6

    At random if you take Leech, Harry - he appears on the CWGC site as Rank Civilian - why does he and others not appear in UK, WWII Civilian Deaths, 1939-1945

    The basis for this database is - as Ancestry have stated it:

    About UK, WWII Civilian Deaths, 1939-1945
    This database contains seven volumes listing civilians in the British Commonwealth and Empire who died during World War II and are commemorated on Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC) memorials or buried in CWGC cemeteries. The Commission explains these records as follows:
    “These volumes contain the Roll of Honour of those civilians, citizens of the Commonwealth and Empire, who were killed in the United Kingdom by enemy action during the 1939–1945 War, while engaged in household or in business activities, or at their posts as members of the Civil Defence Services. Their graves are scattered throughout the country.”
    While most of these records are for the United Kingdom, they do include civilian deaths from around the world, including many lost at sea.
    What You May Find in These Records
    Entries vary, but they may include
    name
    age
    residence
    date and place of death
    parents
    spouse
    Please note that the information in these registers reflects what had been reported to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission up to the date of publication. Since then further information may have come to light.


    I am therefore assuming that if you are researching a civilian killed in WW2 it is necessary to check both the Civilian Deaths database and also the CWGC database
    TD
     
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  9. RCG

    RCG Senior Member, Deceased

    Not been able to find out much about the incident apart from this little snippet.
    7th July
    Disturbed night again. Didn't sound too bad to us, but hits on Southtown Rd, Northgate St & Rows. 12 killed.
    http://www.ourgreatyarmouth.org.uk/page/the_wartime_memories_of_sj_pearce

    Nor could I find where 7, Whittleton Place was
    however 1st ordnance survey map shows built up area

    [​IMG]

    and 1946 Aerial photo show a clear area where it may have been.

    [​IMG]
     
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  10. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    TD I would assume check CWGC first


    regards
    Clive
     
  11. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    I guess so - although I was trying to work out why some appear on CWGC and then some on Civilian Deaths, who decides which one receives a CWGC headstone and which doesn't. When it all started surely those at CWGC said when they received a registration " Hey this is a civilian send it along to the Civilian registration dept for their database, we only deal with Military personnel"

    If thats not the case, then why have the 2 databases/systems, just register all with CWGC and as they have done, give them a rank of 'Civilian'.

    TD
     
  12. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    Hello TD

    The civilians are just on the register on CWGC and do not have CWGC headstones.They are not detailed by cemetery but by area reporting authority.ie Jame Little listed below Newmarket Urban District.




    This from Willesden New Cemetery he is not commemorated on CWGC has a non war headstone which will be maintained by CWGC.

    A.L.Shrubsole RASC died 26th July 1945





    Example below of civilian headstone possibly along the lines of CWGC but supplied by the family buried Newmarket cemetery


    LITTLE, JAMES






    Rank:

    Civilian

    Date of Death:

    26/02/1941

    Age:

    65

    Regiment/Service:

    Civilian War Dead





    Reporting Authority:

    NEWMARKET, URBAN DISTRICT



    Additional Information:

    of Red House, Albion Street, St. Mary. Died at White Lodge Emergency Hospital, Exning.
     

    Attached Files:

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  13. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    Civilian
    The lists were continually updated, with many names added in the decades after the war. The Commonwealth War Graves Commission now lists 67,092, some details for which can be found at its own website.
    Ancestry has digitised a version of the roll, obtained by a private collector, from the 1950s, before some names were added. The database lists around 59,418 and users are able to search through the roll. Details provided include the name, age, residence, parents, spouse – where applicable – as well as date and place of death.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-two/10454718/Records-of-WW2-civilian-war-dead-published-online.html
     
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  14. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    CL1

    Thanks - that last post is revealing and something I had not found

    TD
     
  15. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    Whittleton Place seems to have a variety of spellings...
    WOODS, JOHN. Rank: Lance Corporal. Service No: 9631. Date of Death: 20/10/1914. Age: 25.
    Regiment/Service: King's Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment) 1st Bn.
    Panel Reference: Panel 2. Memorial: PLOEGSTEERT MEMORIAL.
    Additional Information: Son of Henry and Maria Woods, of 6, Whittleton's Place, Northgate St., Great Yarmouth, Norfolk.

    SYMONDS, BERTIE JAMES. Rank: Deck Hand. Service No: 7336DA. Date of Death: 25/08/1918. Age: 30.
    Regiment/Service: Royal Naval Reserve H.M. Trawler "Veresis."
    Panel Reference: 31. Memorial: CHATHAM NAVAL MEMORIAL.
    Additional Information: Born at Caister. Son of William Symonds, of 10, Whittletons Place, Northgate St., Great Yarmouth, and the late Mary Ann Symonds.

    SMITH, STANLEY ARCHER. Date of Death: 07/07/1941. Age: 37. Civilian War Dead
    Reporting Authority:GREAT YARMOUTH, COUNTY BOROUGH.
    Additional Information:Air Raid Warden; of 6 Whittleton Place, Northgate Street. Son of W. H. K. Smith, of 5 Bulmans Nursery, Northgate Street; husband of Victoria Ellen Elizabeth Smith, W.R.N.S. (killed in same incident). Died at 6 Whittleton Place.

    What they all agree on is that it is adjacent to Northgate Street. Sad coincidence that 6 Whittleton Place knew grief in both World Wars......

    Victoria Smith seems not to have Whittleton (my chosen Search parameter) in her CWGC entry.
     
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  16. RCG

    RCG Senior Member, Deceased

  17. Guy Hudson

    Guy Hudson Looker-upper

    RCG,
    I agree, it appears to be on Kitchener Road now. Based on your 1946 aerial, street view shows some post-war houses and a pub car park in that area. There appears to be a break in the Victorian terraces suggesting bomb damage.
     

    Attached Files:

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