Reinstate National Service?

Researching my family's involvement in WW1 and WW2 got me thinking about what my dad said to me about National Service. He was born during the early war years and was good friends with a guy that was a couple of years older than him. Because of the age difference his friend had to do it but by the time my dad was old enough it had been discontinued.

I think at the time he thought he'd had a lucky escape while his mate got unlucky, but when he talked to me later on it seems like he thought the discipline would have been good for him and perhaps he had missed out.

I hope this isn't too close to politics to be deleted, but I'd be interested to see who thinks it would be a good idea and who doesn't. Perhaps we could even divide it in to age groups, as at a guess I would think older generations may be in favour more so. For the record I am in my 30s and think it would be a good idea.

Cheers

ps any chance of a poll?

 

Dale, you can set up a poll on the page where you created the thread, not sure if you can set it up now - perhaps a Mod can help.
Personally I think National Service would be a good thing but is highly unlikely to happen here in the UK due to the high cost. Other european contries had it until recently and I believe some still do. My Father did NS 1951-53 and whilst I don't think he enjoyed it he benefitted in many ways including touch-typing and teleprinter experience that ensured employment after his service.
For your info I am 49 and think I would have benefitted from National Service, as would many younger people, for the discipline and self discipline instilled in service.

 

I'm 44 and the answer is No.

The Argentinians had a conscript army in 1982, The Russians had a conscript army in Afghanistan to name a few that weren't very good and to quote my Permanent Staff Officer when I volunteered for the Iraq war in 2003 'One volunteer is worth ten pressed men'.

The British Army is a 'professional' army made up solely of volunteers and long may it continue.

Rant over

 

Wiki article here:
National service - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Drew, I totally agree about a professional Army (and other forces) being much preferable to a conscript one but I think the values instilled in service would benefit the nation as a whole. Perhaps some sort of non-military service but with military style training and discipline could be a compromise. I think similar schemes have been discussed but probably not implemented for reasons of cost.

 

Definitely see your point Drew about keeping it professional. I do however agree with Mike. I think society in general would benefit from community service projects for young adults but with a military emphasis on discipline etc.

You're probably right about the cost Mike, but what cost and strain will be put on society without something like it?

 

Two years ago I was in the company of a couple of glider pilots and a Colonel of 16 air assault, we were having lunch, and the question arose, (not by me) about bringing back National Service, it would appear that some of the older generation think its whats required to sort out some of today's problems, but as the Colonel said, we do not have the powers to go in hard a straighten up recruits that we had years ago, there is little we can do for them, we can only shape up recruits that are keen and want to do the job, its all a very different place now
So I think that ties in very well with what Drew said.

lofty (67 years old, just missed National Service)

 

Dale, as you are from Texas I doubt you would have seen a series on UK TV a couple of years ago called 'Bad Lads Army'. It was about some of today's scrotes being put through 1950's National Service experience for a couple of weeks by veteran instructors. I think there was a second and possibly third series. Might be able to find it on You Tube - it was quite illuminating.

Found it - link here:
Bad Lads Army - Episode 1 Part 1 - YouTube

 

Cheers for the link Mike. I am actually English, but live in Texas. I think I need to edit my profile

 

It is interesting that if you look at the press coverage of the National Service era (i.e. from 1945 to 1960) the sociological effects of conscription were generally thought to be corrupting - in other words, young men called up into the services were introduced to a 'bad crowd', taught habits of skrimshanking that they would take back to civilian life, etc. The nostalgia about National Service is almost entirely a post-1960 phenomenon. We see what we wish to see.

Best, Alan

 

Now I have found the link I will probably watch it myself, I really enjoyed the series.
Did you see it Dale or were you already in the States then?
You couldn't get away with the harshness of discipline today, and to some extent for good reason. I know a young man who did basic at Harrogate a couple of years ago and it is rather different these days but still not easy.
What are opinions in the States?

Noted the profile change!

 

I think I may have caught an episode when visiting my family. I have been here over a decade Mike. As far as what people here think I tend not to talk military/religion with the folks here

 

Did you add the poll Dale or did one of our kind Mods do it?
This is likely to be an area that generates possibly polarised arguments and posts.
I do hope it doesen't degenerate into a slagging match as I feel it is a very valid subject and there are serious social issues to be discussed.

 

Was a kind mod I agree Mike this issue tends to polarize, but I think we can keep it civil. Time for me to get my little boy to bed, but I look forward to seeing if we have a robust thread going tomorrow.

 

Sir,
I have a Grandson who left school recently,no angel by any means,if he eventually enters the Services it will be his decision and his alone.I lost a second cousin in Korea he was never cut out for military service and had it not been for his National Service would never have thought about joining up.The World is a different place now National Service is from a Bygone age let it remain so.

Best

Clifford

 

This came up recently for discussion on a social forum I'm a member of...and I posted a variation of the following;

There are significant practical problems with the idea

1/ the cost of it - if it supposedly costs something like £22 a day to house/clothe/feed a prisoner in one of HM's prisons...how much would it cost to clothe/feed/house/train and pay National Servicemen nowadays....let alone tens of thousands, if not HUNDREDS of thousands of them?

2/ it would soak up virtually the entire regular British Army as a training cadre!

3/ when National Service was at its peak - this island was COVERED in military establishments, holdovers from WWII; at least 90% of those have vanished below the sod, below industrial parks or below housing estates :p There's nowhere to put them. You can't take tens of thousands of young men and out them in tents somewhere....THAT is a recipe for exactly the kind of disorder and social unrest that you'd be trying to cure!

4/ There's nowhere to train them Even the regular Army is suffering now from a growing lack of space within the UK now that Germany is increasingly being lost to us.

5/ There's nothing to clothe them in, or put on their feet, or on their heads. We regularly release a the Army's stores to public sale nowadays, it's not uncommon to find kit items in surplus shops that are only a few years old....if not a few MONTHS old! It would require a HUGE capital spend to re-equip for handling thousands of National Service recruits.

6/ What exactly do we do with them??? We don't have a rump of empire to send them off to any more, we don't have anywhere to send them after basic EXCEPT leave them festering somewhere in the UK; the only foreign deployment we have now is as peacekeepers somewhere....or the Falklands! And how expensive per head is it to send and keep a serviceman THERE compared with the UK?

And we don't even have mines any more to send them down instead! :p

On the other forum that just about killed the thread LMAO

In theory it sounds great - in practice it's a non-starter. It would create far more problems at many levels, right up to the national exchequer, than it would ever solve. National Service was a means to mobilise manpower...NOT to keep people off the streets. Those rose-tinted glasses of nostalgia mentioned up the thread seem to have dimmed the true meaning of National Service.

 

I am American, and so I don't know if I can or should vote in this poll.

I am doubtful about the socializing, trade-teaching benefits of conscription. I view it purely from a military standpoint. The fact is that the United States currently has so many military responsibilities that our volunteer force manpower has been stretched beyond the limit. As a result, we have had to send even National Guard personnel to Afghanistan and Iraq for multiple tours, which leads inevitably to higher rates of burnout, combat-stress, and lowered unit efficiency. This simply is not fair to the troops, who are asked to do more than is reasonable. With a draft, we would not be facing this problem. I am in favor of conscription because I don't think a great power can sustain itself militarily without it, but I fear my opinion is very much a minority one over here.

 

TTH, it DOES make sense for a "great nation" as you put it - see points 3, 4 and 6 above!

The problem here however is....Britain is Great at the minute in name only. We are physically no longer "great" as in large. We have a habit of taking large responsibilities upon ourselves...but we don't have the equal and matching large budget to do it all with.

If we were still the physical size of the U.S. and its global responsibilities it might make more sense - but we are not. For some of us it's a painfully hard lesson to take on board (sic!) but that era has passed now for us in the UK

 

Yes, I understand your situation there and I sympathize. And by the way, I said "great power" in reference to the US, not "great nation." There is a difference, and I am fully aware of it. We are stuck with a great power's responsibilities, but that certainly doesn't make us a "great nation" in the cornball "We're No. 1!" sense, and I hope I didn't give that impression.

 

Housing shortage, youth unemployment and many master craftsmen out of work. We have billions to give away in aid which can be used in ways not intended. One council in England owns over 100 million pounds worth of empty houses, row upon row street upon street that they bought up in better times with a view to demolition and redevelopment, now they stand empty costing a small fortune in security as they are all secured against squatters and patrolled by security companies. Employ master tradesmen to teach, give on the job training to young folk as they refurbish this housing. Housing stock increased without green belt use, employment for tradesmen and proper training for the young. Money circulating in the building supply and transport industry. If we need service it should be along these lines where everyone benefits.




'One volunteer is worth ten pressed men'.