Reenactment: What About The Germans?

Originally posted by morse1001@Apr 11 2005, 03:47 PM
[
he could might have been in "character" for the re-enactment! :P :P
[post=33069]Quoted post[/post]


quite right!

thinking about it, he was doing it quite well

 

Originally posted by sappernz@Apr 8 2005, 11:14 PM
Albrown: When you describe the SS as ordinary men, it reminds me of my neighbour when I was a kid. He was a British guard at the Nuremburg War Crimes sitting and he told me that the thing that scared him most was the fact that all the Nazi defendents looked ordinary. Gone was the bombast, uniforms and power and these scum were just old men in ill fitting suits.
They were not ordinary. They just looked it .
When they had their trappings of power they were anything but ordinary.
They were, are and will always be vile cowards responsible for the most barbaric acts in history.
Truelly ordinary men, or women do not do that.
[post=33011]Quoted post[/post]
Your neighbor who was a guard at Nuremberg is also proof against the Holocaust Deniers' claims that the confessions of Hoess and the other war criminals were extracted under torture. I also have a pal who interrogated the Buchenwald staff, including Ilse Koch, and he also swears they were not tortured. Interrogated harshly, yes. Tortured, no. A better deal than their victims got, I might add.

 

Little boys have played war games since they were knee high,
Some have experienced WAR first hand, whilst others can only reinact battles,
Some boys never grow up, the little boy in them comes out in their replays of what they read as having been fact. Young at heart, leave them be, as long as none of them sinulate the atrocious inhuman actions that took place in the POW's especially against women and children, that would be sickening.
I know what I am talking about altho I wasn't in a camp, my father remained in the British Army as a regular soldier, and we travelled for days on a train to our postings in Italy, and then back again to Germany. Many camps were still being operated and the images are ingrained in my mind, piles of boots, and bodies.
I saw children rummageing in our dustbins for food in Germany, my mother insisted that food be wrapped and left on top for them to take,.
Many German households were taken over by the Gestapo armies, Germn soldiers were in German POW Camps, like every nation, there are good and bad, the evil in this world is in the hearts of those who perform the acts.
I wonder if those that deride all German people (stupidity) would refuse a German heart if they needed one.
The first heart transplant was by Christian Bernard in Africa to a white man from a black man, they treated the black people badly, took his heart tho'.
Just a point In thought I'd make. Shouldn't let hate be a climate of the heart

 

There is a difference between reenactment and living history, the first being people putting on period costume and staging battles, the latter being people putting on period costume, carrying paperwork, reproduction matchboxes, sleeping in ww2 tents and ww2 sleepingbags, knowing a lot about everything, trying to get the feel right, etc.
Well that a bit general but you get the idea.
To some it is just playing soldiers, its not pc but its fun and if they wan to do that and people enjoy watching it...who am I to complaign?
I have enjoyed medieval and other period battles as well.
But for some its not just playing soldiers, its a novel way of historical research and a fantastic way to educate, to bring history to the masses and make kids realise history doesnt have to be boring.

I myself take part in living history, we portray people living in occupied holland.
We dont run around shooting but we perform at museums, schools, film & tv.

My attitude towards german reenactors is different then those in the UK, for us here its a bit more sensetive.
Either way, I completely understand that there are people that rather not see some parts of the german side, SS is out of the question at events overhere.
We are slowly getting used to wehrmacht though.
The SS were not just very good soldiers, part of their training was sickening propaganda teaching of race theories and learning some people were worth less then crap.
Most of these men were hardened soldiers who had little time for begging civilians, scared people, etc.
To many people abroad the Germans were 'just a very good enemy', a group of soldiers that fought.
To us they were the men who for 5 years dominated our streets, directed our traffic, had the best compartments in trains reserved, had amazing meals while our children starved, took part in arrests, checked our papers, took away our jewish neighbours, etc, etc, etc.

 

The contoversy rumbles on: there was a long and impassioned letter in our local newspaper 'The Bury Times' protesting about the appearance of 'swaggering' SS re-enactors at the East Lancashire preserved railway's recent 'Wartime Weekend'.

 

Originally posted by Mark Hone@Jun 9 2005, 04:45 PM
'swaggering' SS re-enactors [post=35154]Quoted post[/post]

I suppose it does not help that it would be a bit phoney if the SS reenactors didn't swagger and acted humble instead.

 

I have attended the Militaria Fair coincideng with the East Lancashire Re-enactment Weekend on May Bank Holiday Monday for the last three years -

There is a steady number of people going around dressed in period costume - the majority being dressed as Germans or Americans - there are only a small amount of British Servicemen represented
There are the few 'charachters' from 'Dad's Army', an odd para and a few RAF

Yes and this year I DID go in uniform.

It was interesting to chat the fellow 'RAF Types' - there were those interested in deing authentic, whilst there were others who were going aroundd with wrong insignia on, but did not deen to care - - saying they did not wnt to pay 9 quid for a repro WW2 RAF Officers cap badge.

It takes 'all sorts' ..... at the end of the day it was all a bit of escapist fun .. there were no scraps, no name calling - Brits, Jerrys and Yanks got along just fine along with the civvies.

It people are representing 'other forces', it is not surprising that they want to dress as the 'elite fighting unit', they do not have to prescribe to the doctrines and racial hatred the actual units were brainwashed with.
To aim to be realistic is understandable - (though there are clearly 'comic charachters' around) - it would not look right soldiers running round with sticks making machine gun noises - that is kids stuff !!... 'but then are not most chaps 'big kids at heart'?

Given the chance I think a lot would have a go at 'dressing up' - so long as you didn't stick out like a sore thumb.

60th Anniversay if VE and VJ days seens a good year to dress up if you want .. it is only a bit of FUN!!!

Cheers



Wing Co.

 

Originally posted by Biggles@Jun 10 2005, 04:01 PM

60th Anniversay if VE and VJ days seens a good year to dress up if you want .. it is only a bit of FUN!!!

[post=35189]Quoted post[/post]

Yes, but to be authentic we would have to lock the Germans up in a POW cage.

 

I didn't go to this year's event at the East Lancs as I was on holiday, but have been previously. (Not as a re-enactor, I live in Bury). As I mentioned on an earlier thread, the SS I have seen there were generally not good adverts for the master race as far as physical condition goes. Did they do SS camo smocks in XXXL?

 

I think that age, size and physical condition is a problem with re-enactment in general.

Frankly, it is often overweight, out of condition middle aged men, but I just can't see it appealing to fit teenagers, who have plenty of other stuff to do.

 

I think that on a previous thread it was mentioned that in the film 'Gettysburg' which relied heavily on re-enactors, the average age of the men on Pickett's Charge appeared to be a well-fed 45. This sort of thing has also been pointed out by eagle-eyed and perspicacious puils when I have shown educational videos on the English Civil War which feature e.g The Sealed Knot. In addition quite a few of their 'cavalrymen' are actually women these days. As you say the young have got other things to do.

 

As I wrote in a similar vein elsewhere on this Forum, Support and Administrative personnel often do not get the recognition they deserve when battles and wars are discussed -- or in this case when they are re-enacted. Yet they are essential to winning battles and wars. The men and women who fight in battle on the front lines rightfully get most of the glory and reap the accolades for they spill the blood and undergo the extreme hardships and are the most frequently and terribly wounded -- or even pay the supreme sacrifice -- the survivors often bearing the scars of battle for the rest of their lives -- like Sapper on this Forum.

However, wars could not be fought nor victories won without the legions of behind the scenes support personnel: clerks, cooks, transportation, supply, medical, maintenance, command & control, chaplains, weather, civil engineers, legal, training, mechanics ..... and so on (I have probably inadvertently omitted many). They are the unsung and often unheralded heroes and heroines of the military who, like the combat soldiers, sailors and airmen, endure long periods of separation from their loved ones, interminable boredom and loneliness and sometimes are wounded or die from non-battlefield injuries.

I spent the last few years of my my twenty three year career in the United States Air Force (through the Korean and Vietnam wars) in command and control as Base Sgt. Major and developed a tremendous respect for the professionalism and devotion to duty of Administrative and Support personnel. I came to appreciate that it is the myriads of support personnel who toil hard and endure much -- frequently without much recognition -- that are essential to insuring the success of innumerable military missions. IMO, their depiction should be an intrinsic part of all re-enactments -- not everyone can be a fierce combat fighter.

As others have said .....

..... I think that age, size and physical condition is a problem with re-enactment in general .....

..... Frankly, it is often overweight, out of condition middle aged men, but I just can't see it appealing to fit teenagers, who have plenty of other stuff to do .....

..... 'Gettysburg' which relied heavily on re-enactors, the average age of the men on Pickett's Charge appeared to be a well-fed 45 .....

..... As I mentioned on an earlier thread, the SS I have seen there were generally not good adverts for the master race as far as physical condition goes. Did they do SS camo smocks in XXXL? .....

Yes, I think weight and physical appearance are a big detraction. I participate in WW2, Civil War (the most westerly battle was fought near Tucson at Picacho peak) and Indian War (Geronimo campaigns at Fort Lowell) re-enactments here and to my mind many of the participants look kind of ludicrous with their (mostly) bulging tummies and flabby appearance -- a far cry from the actual participants of the time. But they try their sincere best, bless their hearts, and put a tremendous amount of effort into their roles. As entertainment for them they are heartily enjoyable -- as education for the public (especially youngsters) they are sometimes quite a bit off mark IMO.

BTW, I restrict my own re-enactment participation to technical advise and "flunky" support -- I am far too fat and old to be an actual re-enactor.

 

Last month, I attended an event at Edinburgh Castle called "The Scottish Soldier at the Castle, 1814-1914". One of the re-enactors present was in the guise of a British Army cook of 1914.

 

An afterthought:

As other posters have pointed out, there is a difference between "re-enacting" and "living history" -- I think it is important to include period civilian participants in both depictions for they were frequently important contributors to the events.

Unfortunately, I can't even realistically portray a WW2 British home front civilian "senior citizen" for I am far too "portly" now -- a lot heavier than any I remember including my own grandfather! :angry:

 

Some interesting pix here on the forum from last summer of US airborne re-enactors - and the real thing from 1944:

http://www.ww2talk.com/index.php?showtopic=662&st=15

 

Originally posted by Gibbo@Jun 12 2005, 04:00 PM
Last month, I attended an event at Edinburgh Castle called "The Scottish Soldier at the Castle, 1814-1914". One of the re-enactors present was in the guise of a British Army cook of 1914.
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That is very refreshing, indeed.

 

Originally posted by angie999@Jun 12 2005, 04:14 PM
Some interesting pix here on the forum from last summer of US airborne re-enactors - and the real thing from 1944:

http://www.ww2talk.com/index.php?showtopic=662&st=15
[post=35273]Quoted post[/post]

In the same vein, the participants in the photographs I have seen of present day British Home Guard re-enactors do not bear much resemblance to those in this period photo of a Home Guard unit:

 

Originally posted by jamesicus+Jun 12 2005, 04:23 PM-->(jamesicus @ Jun 12 2005, 04:23 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Gibbo@Jun 12 2005, 04:00 PM
Last month, I attended an event at Edinburgh Castle called "The Scottish Soldier at the Castle, 1814-1914". One of the re-enactors present was in the guise of a British Army cook of 1914.
[post=35271]Quoted post[/post]

That is very refreshing, indeed.
[post=35274]Quoted post[/post]
[/b]
I've just remembered that there were also 2 gentlemen dressed as medical orderlies of the Zulu War period. There is also a group in the UK who demonstrate a World War 1 Field Hospital, which I've seen twice. I think that these people are National Army Museum employees. I also attended a WW2 event at Stirling Castle last year at which there were a number of people in civilian clothes of the period & one dressed as an army padre.

These events were all organised by Historic Scotland, the Scottish equivalent of English Heritage, so were very much at the Living History end of the scale.

 

At a WWII weekend at Bristol docks last summer there were quite a few people in 1940s civilian clothes and an original NAAFI refreshment truck, with the two people running it in the correct outfits.

 

In a previous posting I wrote:

..... photographs I have seen of present day British Home Guard re-enactors .....

In one photograph I saw (on this Forum?) a young boy portraying a bicycle messenger. I was an ARP bicycle messenger in 1941 (as was a close friend of mine now living in Canada) but I don't recall any with our local Home Guard units.

Does anyone know if this was the case in some localities? Just curious.