Re-enacting good or bad?

Discussion in 'General' started by Owen, Jul 10, 2006.

  1. MyOldDad

    MyOldDad Senior Member

    not my piece of cake, don't like it all, at arnhem is getting out of hand, and I know a a number of vets who don't like it at all, spcialy when they walked fully dressed around on the Cemetery, no respect at all for those who fought and were killed at Arnhem if you do this, and I am 100% behind them.

    The very few surviving South Lancs Lads left who are all well into there 80's, thinks its fantastic, as its a living memory to the Regiment, and to those that were lost during WWII and for those that survived.

    I was surprised to stumble over this photo which shows the coffin of high profile WWII veteran Frank Facenda of US 101st Airborne being carried by 101st reenactors:

    Facenda Funeral 3.jpg

    Frank Facenda :poppy::

    View attachment 37639

    From here: Member Profiles - SEPA101stAirborne

    The usual distinctions between historical reality and reenactment seem to be blurred here as they are taking part in an actual historic event.

    Tom.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    Re-enacting is not my cup of tea but I don't see any real harm in it. In fact, those who do it well and strive for accuracy are doing a service in bringing those historical periods to life. As with any group you will have the purists, the fanatics and the just plain wacky.
    If you accept re-enacting then it seems to me that you have to accept the good with the bad. The SS were just as much part of that period as any allied unit. I'm sure that a great many just love the cool uniforms and weapons. They should, however, be aware that some sensibilities will be offended by those symbols. Going into Tesco dressed in SS garb is simply a stupid move.

    Many of these groups in Dieppe a few years ago along with period vehicles. They mixed really well with the vets and it added something to the events.

    IMGP1247.jpg

    IMGP1245.jpg

    IMGP1254.jpg
     
  3. Nicola_G

    Nicola_G Senior Member

    Well I went to the Home Front event at the Royal Artillery museum yesterday and what a disappointment really. I was expecting a large Home Front re-enactment, which would have been great given the large courtyard they have out the front. There were about 10 re-enactors: one housewife, one LDA, one fireman, one army officer, one army sargeant?, one cadet and about 3 Home guard. Given that I had travelled nearly 2 hours from the West of London to the foreign country that is the east end of London (lol) I felt really let down. I wasn't impressed by the 'officer' to be honest, didn't strike me as 'real'. The best people to my mind were the 'sargeant' and the fireman, both who came across as really 'being' their characters but the others weren't so good. I chatted to the 'house wife' for a while and whilst her outfit was good with all her household goods, I couldn't hear everything she said, a pity as part of re-enactment is passing on information.
    Having seen a very impressive re-enactment on the Watercress line, this left something to be desired. However the ex military guys and one of the volunteers were very helpful in regards to my uncle, so it wasn't totally a wasted journey.
     
  4. singeager

    singeager Senior Member

    I’m part of a group of reinactors called ‘Tramps in Armour’ and we portray British Armoured troops in WW2. We are based on 11th armoured or 2nd Household Cavalry/Guards Armoured Divisions, dependent upon which vehicles are available on the day.

    Being affiliated to the East of England Military Museum at Snetterton we can field many vehicles from a working Comet tank to a Dingo.

    Overall the reaction we have from veterans has been 95 percent in favour, and only had a few negative reactions actually voiced.

    For example one chap (ex officer from the 50’s Household Cavalry) was put out that we were representing the regiment whilst dressed in tank suits covered in oil and grease. He said that this was not correct for a regiment that was top in order of precedence and known for its smartness and elan!
    I countered his argument by showing him about 50 period photos of the Life Guards in WW2 and latter in Egypt, in clothing in worst state than we had on.
    Explained that we represented the troops as they were in daily order, not on the parade ground. And then introducing him to two of WW2 veterans who were actually with us and in those very photo’s.
    Needless to say he conceded the point.



    On my desk as I write, I have five letters from guys who served in WW2 awaiting my response. Many thanking us for our time and efforts and in some cases offering to entrust items to us, as they know they will go to a caring home.

    At the last show one chap travelled 50 miles to present me with an original 1945 date manual for my armoured car. And another has written to freely offere me his original Recce Corps battledress that he has kept since WW2.

    I guess the reason we get support is that we have spent a great deal of time and effort getting the look right, have done a great deal of historical research.
    And spend most of our reenactment time underneath vehicles doing maintenance, other duties around camp, or making an effort to talk to people.
    What we don’t do is play with guns and don’t get involved with battle reenactment.
    (We do however drink a lot of tea).

    Reenactment is a hobby but to my mind is a hobby with a responsibility. And the responsibility is to entertain, inform and educate the public in as ‘real way’ as possible. So that they gain some small understanding of what there fathers and grandfathers went though.

    Singe.
     
  5. MyOldDad

    MyOldDad Senior Member

    Great post, Singe. A very positive contibution to the debate.
    Best regards,
    Tom.
     
  6. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    I agree, well said Singe.
    Singe seems to be what I think is probably the best side of the reenactment enthusiasts, presenting some of the drudgery of military service rather than just battles. How much time did the average Serviceman spend in combat as opposed to dull mainenance etc?

    Mike
     
  7. MLW

    MLW Senior Member

    As a retired veteran who was in the Gulf War, and then as a contractor supporting the military in Balkans, Iraq, Afghanistan, and other crappy places around the world, I can only say that I do not like Paper Soldiers. I know what the real thing looks like, and it is not found on the reenacting playground. As for the SS reenactors, I don't know which is more pitiful - those who dress up like the SS, or those who watch them.
     
  8. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Then I'm not going to ask you what you think of airsoft :lol:
     
  9. Combover

    Combover Guest

    As a retired veteran who was in the Gulf War, and then as a contractor supporting the military in Balkans, Iraq, Afghanistan, and other crappy places around the world, I can only say that I do not like Paper Soldiers. I know what the real thing looks like, and it is not found on the reenacting playground. As for the SS reenactors, I don't know which is more pitiful - those who dress up like the SS, or those who watch them.

    A very sweeping, negative statement that one. I've lost count how many genuine WW2 veterans have thanked myself and my brother for doing what we do. A bloke walking round like they had to makes it more real for everyone than looking at phots. And not everyone knows what a WW2 Tommy looks like.
     
  10. Theobob

    Theobob Senior Member

    Re-enactors have always made me uneasy.
    I think it can be a little disrespectful,especially when a lot of beer is involved.
    i think tableau`s at a museum can be very informative.
    But hooping and hollering on weekends re-enacting battles where people have been killed leaves me a little cold.
    I know i am in the minority here! but there you go
     
  11. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    If I may, it appears to me there are two ways two look at this, with perhaps a number of grey shades in between.

    Some do reenacting as a depiction of how people at a time lived, dressed, ate, drank, etc, even fighting, perhaps. To me this what is represented by the words Living History, and people who do this take quite an effort to be accurate and avoiding anachronisms and histrionics. The point is to educate themselves and the public. I am satisfied that this kind is well represented in this forum.

    On the other end of the spectrum we have that curious blend of supposedly grown up boys, and and quite a few Walts who may be the kind of people you have in mind, Theo. These are represented at best by people who at best don't look themselves in the mirror, and are usually described in this forum and others as the Gross Deutschland, with accent on the Gross :)

    And the guy was proud at himself!
    rudi_trench.jpg

    And I'm sorry for the vocabulary, but can anyone believe this shit? link

    I really cannot imagine Combover or Singe embarking into this!

    A good discussion elsewhere: link.

    And what is going on here? Hessian Grenadiere or the Turkey Parade? Really some people can't look at themselves in the mirror!

    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

  12. singeager

    singeager Senior Member

    MLW, Agree with every thing you say except….

    A large number of kids that I have met appear to think war is like they get in Brothers in Arms or Medal of Honour.

    Ive had some come up and start spouting off about shooting Nazi Zombies and other such crap. The impression they give is that it wasand is, all a big game.
    With free life at the end of each chapter and bonus points for head shots.

    Now ive not been ‘there’ and I can honestly say im bl**dy glad that my generation has not on the whole had to contribute the way my grandfather and his family did.
    (With the exception of course of those on active service today)
    Restoring and driving my armour is as close to ‘reality’ as I would ever want to get.

    From what you say you have been ‘there’ and I would imagine that you would be dismayed at the kids reaction and complete lack of education and understanding of what real war is like.

    Lesson number one from history:
    Want to build an army,?
    Get the populous to forget the horrors and glory in make believe war.
    The Nazi party were amazingly successful in achieving this. Even more astounding is this fact when you consider it was only a decade or so after the biggest slaughter in recorded history. In the mud baths of Northern France.

    Sadly these kids don’t meet servicemen or ex servicemen.
    The only ones they do meet are recruiting sergeants and are not likely to be giving a true view of what war is like.

    The nearest they are going to get is likely to be a reinactor at a show and with some luck it wont be a 24 stone para carrying every weapon known to man. Or an SS wannabe with a look at me attitude.
    (Like I say we don’t do the run around and pretend to shoot things stuff…………..)

    Hope fully it will be someone a little more clued up who can clearly explain history.
    How it really was and then provides a small demonstration so that this sinks in.
    (This is living history and THEOBOB might think of it as more interactive mobile museum tableau)

    My favourite demonstration is as follows:

    • Kid comes up and looks at the Bren gun and says ‘ is that a type ‘99’…..this is cause hes been playing medal of honour and is familiar with the Japanese version of the original Czech gun.
    • After explaining the history of the Bren etc I might offer for him to hold it, and then before getting him to lift is off the ground will run him through a simple drill to prove that there are no rounds present. (I do this because they almost never even consider that it is a possibility of being live – and this is a mistake I once made myself)
    • On being allowed to lift this ‘Light Machine Gun’ I get them to try and aim it at a point some distance away. Almost to a boy, they can’t even raise the barrel level let alone sight it. After a few seconds they get tired and lower the gun.
    • I remind them that its not quite as easy as it is in the game and you can see the realisation in there faces that lugging this great big gun around all day would not actually be any fun at all……………
    It’s a small lesson but hopefully something that might make them think a bit when next playing on there PC or games consul.

    This might sound as if im anti army, this is far from the case, but what I am is anti war.
    Especially war that could be avoided if we remember and learn from history

    Lets not sleepwalk into another global war because political correctness or indoctrination has brought up a generation were war is normal, healthy and painless.

    Singe.
     
    Shiny 9th and Owen like this.
  13. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Top post Singe.
    I agree with abit of what everyone has said.
    I don't like to see play fighting but I do like to see good quality , well researched displays.
     
  14. Swiper

    Swiper Resident Sospan

    My favourite demonstration is as follows:

    • Kid comes up and looks at the Bren gun and says ‘ is that a type ‘99’…..this is cause hes been playing medal of honour and is familiar with the Japanese version of the original Czech gun.
    • After explaining the history of the Bren etc I might offer for him to hold it, and then before getting him to lift is off the ground will run him through a simple drill to prove that there are no rounds present. (I do this because they almost never even consider that it is a possibility of being live – and this is a mistake I once made myself)
    • On being allowed to lift this ‘Light Machine Gun’ I get them to try and aim it at a point some distance away. Almost to a boy, they can’t even raise the barrel level let alone sight it. After a few seconds they get tired and lower the gun.
    • I remind them that its not quite as easy as it is in the game and you can see the realisation in there faces that lugging this great big gun around all day would not actually be any fun at all……………

    Very good mate, exactly what me and my boys do. Best I had was at Route to Victory with around 20 scouts around us, and several families, all asking questions, getting stuck in, having photos with helmets on/'Greek' BD jackets on (getting the feel of BD), feeling the weight of it all. Indeed our new display is a 'Battle School' display which we hope will allow for the implementation of new ideas etc, and be more accessible for all - whilst being dead on accuate.


    A lot of displays are poorer quality with a trench, a load of guys in it doing their best war face, playing with a mix of weapons that are contray to their portrayal, all sorts of kit. Behind wire, not answering questions and being rather 'distant'. Two feet behind open tents with modern radios, and randomers laughing, joking, drinking, eating modern food and allsorts.

    There is a difference between a Reenactot (the above), and a Re-enactor/Living Historian.
     
  15. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

  16. Packhow75

    Packhow75 Senior Member

    I am a "semi-retired" WW2 reenactor... in that have represented various units of the British Army over the years, more recently units from the British Airborne forces... specifically 21st Independent Parachute Company, 1st Airlanding Light Regiment Royal Artillery and 181 Field Ambulance.

    Why reenacting... well... not my original intent. Odd though it will no doubt sound to many, especially some current and ex-service types... I volunteered many years ago to assist with my Jeep and kit (MV owner and Militaria collector) at a British Legion Poppy Appeal collection for my local legion... at the event I was specifically requested by the Legion to wear a uniform for the event. I met several "living historians" as a result and things went from there.

    My rules have been...

    If you represent a unit, learn their history, study photos of them, speak to the veterans and try to be as accurate as possible... down to the underwear and the items in your pocket. If doing "1st person"... ie... "today is 6th June 1944"... know what would have been going on for your person in their life and what they would have known in their life up to that time... and in the event that a veteran picks you up on an inaccuracy, to apologise for your lack of knowledge and thank them for filling in the gaps. If you dont know anything about a unit... then dont wear their uniform until you do.

    Ultimately for me "Living History" has been an opportunity to learn, experience and teach.

    In the pursuit of knowledge I've done as much as I can in all cases, I've studied the books, read the reports, spoken to the veterans... I've jumped out of aircraft, lugged bits of Pack Howitzer, carried radios, stood guard for hours in the freezing cold on hard concrete, dug fox holes under cover of darkness and been out on patrols...

    The education... well... trying to interpret all of the above and communicate it in a context that the modern teenager might understand (unless in 1st Person).

    Over the years I've been fortunate to work for the Royal Artillery, the British Legion, the National Army Museum and the BBC to name but a few.

    So... why now "semi-retired"... well... am now 40... am not as fit as I was... so, time to join dad's army... or consider just displaying my kit. Alas, whilst am not the right age and physique, I can now afford some of the hardware required for certain impressions... and having that hardware, it would be tragic to keep it locked away out of sight... hence semi-retired... and not fully retired.

    I appreciate that not all of the veterans approve of Living Historians... Walter Mittys... Farbs... etc... but personally speaking, I've never tried to be someone I'm not... but have tried get as close to the experience of the real thing as I can without coming under fire, without living in BD for months without change, no showers, limited rations, uncomfortable uniform, ill fitting hobnailed boots... without enduring all of the hardship and horror of the real thing.

    For the life i've been able to lead, I can never thank our veterans enough... for me living history is intended to keep their exploits alive, to ensure that we never forget what they did for us...

    Tim

    Ps:-

    Oosterbeek cemetary, well, I confess once to have been there in WW2 uniform, but only for the internment of the remains of a veteran of the XXI Independent Parachute Company at the express request of the widow and with prior approval from the CWG Commission.

    Battle Reenactment... alas a public spectacle and unfortunately a necessity to get the paying public into an event. As yet am still to witness something which fits into a 20 min window, has the enemy routed successfully with lots of pyros going off in which the participants all appear to be fairly bullet-proof... and is historically accurate in its portrayal. Unfortunately in a WW2 scenario accuracy cannot come into it if someone's paying for the event where the public want to see flashes and hear bangs.
     
  17. Packhow75

    Packhow75 Senior Member

    As a retired veteran who was in the Gulf War, and then as a contractor supporting the military in Balkans, Iraq, Afghanistan, and other crappy places around the world, I can only say that I do not like Paper Soldiers. I know what the real thing looks like, and it is not found on the reenacting playground..

    Try this mob...

    Pathfinder Parachute Group Europe

    Regards

    Tim
     
  18. Swiper

    Swiper Resident Sospan

     
  19. slaphead

    slaphead very occasional visitor

    I'm still unsure about all this because, as many have said, it is the arena events that draw the crowds. At kelmarsh this year most folk glanced at the living history and wandered from event to event (asside from the little nippers who loved to monkey around the 25pounders whenever I got my camera out).

    I do English Civil War re-enacting and that is basically open air theatre. It has all the same problems of obesity and age discrepancies and that is down to most folk getting "into" history at an older age, so I dont think you could ever get away from that problem.

    As a kid I used to play "war" in the street with my invisible "tommy" gun and my mates. You know the thing, "dugga dugga dugga". "a, a, a, a, a,". "You're dead". "No I'm not".
    Yet strangely I find the arena events disturbing in that it seems to be almost parodying the events. This year it was a battle a few days after d-day, last year it was a bunch of tommys taking on a crappy looking V2 launcher. It just seemed "wrong" in so many ways.

    That being said, the static areas near the arena were excellent and that sort of display was very good. The chaps doing the Chindits were all youn and seemed knowledgable to me (though I know nothing of this area of the war). The Essexes and the East Yorkshires were excellent too. That is the side of WWII re-enactment that is worthwhile in my humble opinion.
     
  20. Combover

    Combover Guest

    After having briefly set up a gallery of re-enacting photos and then having it rather unhelpfully given a one-star review (not entirely sure why as no comments, positive or negative, were made), I thought 'bugger it' and had the thing deleted. I was wrong to have put them up on this website, for re-enacting seems to be a sin worse than putting a bit of horse into a burger. The main question I have is, why?

    I'd like to start a decent, intelligent thread on the subject as it seems to divide opinion more so than most other WW2 'fringe' hobbies like modelling, war gaming or WW2 quizing.

    As a re-enactor, I am really rather into the whole thing, and most of my free time is spent joyfuly researching and studying then going on to events. Most decent WW2 re-enactors I know of, are the same and the levels of dedication that go into these impressions can be staggering and will often result in onlookers querying why we strive to get things right when most people won't know if our impressions are 100% correct or not.

    The reason for the gallery I created was to give an impression of what the kit actually looks like on someone who is WW2 sized which, fortunately for me, I am. Over the years I have spent a lot of time money and effort making sure what I do is correct and yet still, this isn't accepted and we're cast as odd-bods who are best left alone.

    This forum has a perceived dislike for re-enactors, which is fine, but i would like to know why. What are your views on it? Why is it such a bad thing?

    Ignoring for a moment the headline grabbing 35-stone Nazi paratrooper, there are so many decent re-enactors out there who really do try and educate and do things age and size appropriately. For instance, a very good friend of mine is over 45 and is overweight - his impression is of a War-correspondent and he's gone to extreme lengths to get everything correct and just so. It's appropriate for him and he looks superb, yet he's derided for it because (as many W/Cs did) he wears battledress. Spending £150 on a pair of original War Correspondant shoulder titles, just so they are right, seems to hold little sway. Similarly making a BBC Midget Recorder from scratch means little.

    We simply cannot please people and I have often wondered why the hell we bother.

    Incidentally the research that goes into putting an impression togther takes a substantial amount of time. I occaisionally protray a Stoker of a submarine. To that end, I have had the paperwork that such a Stoker would have had on his person when walking out. This involves 'choosing' a submarine based on times and places to fit in with what is being portrayed. After 5 1/2 hours last Saturday, I successfully chose the submarine and am duly marking a paybook up with the names of the relevant depot ships and bases and having the paybook 'officially stamped' as such - making the stamps up myself. 5 1/2 hours for a stamp and yet we're still the inferior species in the WW2 research world.

    This post may seem slightly acidic but I really would like to know people's opinions on this. Clearly it was a waste of effort putting a gallery of the different uniforms up, but people's honest opinions on the matter would be fully appreciated. Good or bad.

    :)
     
    von Poop and stolpi like this.

Share This Page