RAOC Units attached to HAA/LAA Regiments 1941

Discussion in 'REME/RAOC' started by timuk, Apr 7, 2022.

  1. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    Does anyone have any information on the size and composition of RAOC units attached to HAA and LAA Regiments/Batteries in 1941? Would they be similar to the REME Workshops and LADs as listed in the Trux Forum for WEs in 1945?

    Tim
     
  2. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

    Tim,
    According to the BRE RAOC pilot roll 6 HAA had attached from RAOC a Captain, a Lieutenant, eight corporals, five lance corporals, and eighty-two privates. Of the privates four are also listed as belonging to the catering corps. I have no idea what they did beyond belonging to the workshop, but the pilot roll is limited to one line per man, as you know.

    John
     
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  3. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    Thanks John.
    Whilst my original post was a general one you have correctly sussed out that my particular interest lies with 6 HAA and 35 LAA. The BRE RAOC pilot roll says under RAOC in Malaya 'W/S Section att 6 HAA' and 'W/S Section att 35 LAA'. The War Diary for 35 LAA says 'Regiment with attached units (ie: RAOC Workshop Section, RASC Platoon and R Signals Section) entrained for Port of Embarkation'.
    I have the RASC Platoon War Diary and the R Signals Section is listed in the BRE 35 LAA Regiment Roll. I cannot find anything on the composition of the Workshops Section and in particular whether there were sub-sections attached to the Batteries.

    Tim
     
  4. Aixman

    Aixman War Establishment addict Patron

    Tim,

    possibly I am able to help, but there are several war establishments available. As there is none for "section" and "battery", the details may be contained in regimental workshops which might need a bit sorting.
    Could you narrow the period? There is a distinction between "base defence" and "base and forward defence". Caliber might help, too.

    Aixman
     
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  5. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    Thanks Aixman.

    6 HAA and 35 LAA departed UK 13 Nov 41 for ME. Diverted at Durban to Singapore arriving 13 Jan 42. 6 HAA had 3.7" and 35 LAA had 40mm Bofors.
    35 LAA War Diary:
    upload_2022-4-8_14-3-38.jpeg
    Later in Singapore parts of 6 HAA (RHQ, 12 &15 Batteries) and 35 LAA (78 and 1 Troop 89 Batteries) were moved to Sumatra, which is why I was wondering whether some RAOC were attached to Batteries. From the Trux site for REME (WE 1945) this would appear to be the case but whether this applied in 1941/2 I do not know.

    Tim
     
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  6. Aixman

    Aixman War Establishment addict Patron

    Thanks Tim.

    R.E.M.E. was created with effect from 15.09.1942 (Army Orders 70 and 71 of 1942; A.C.I. 1605 of 1942, 01.08.1942). This led to a (intended) major reorganization between the services (R.A.S.C., R.A.O.C., R.E., R.E.M.E.). Amongst other all things "workshop" should be moved from R.A.O.C. to R.E.M.E.; the former war establishments might read "Ordnance" instead of "Workshop".
    As there are many war establishments possibly concerned and I am not a specialist in these details, I might have to learn a lot and it might take a while.

    Aixman
     
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  7. Aixman

    Aixman War Establishment addict Patron

    Tim,

    re. Attached R.A.O.C. personnel for 6 Heavy Anti-Aircraft Artillery Regiment

    While still sorting, I stumbled over III/107/1 - Heavy Anti-Aircraft Regiment (Mobile) Ordnance Workshop Section
    A.C.I. 25.06.1941, effective 27.05.1941 - 21.06.1944
    Heavy Anti-Aircraft Regiment (Mobile) Ordnance Workshop Section

    Due to the mass of options, this may not be the correct solution in the end. If I will find a better fitting source, I'll report.

    Don't know much about 6 HAA Regt., so I'll give the conditions for this result below.

    What I know:
    Location Index No. 3 Troops in the United Kingdom, December, 1940 (corrected 21st November, 1940) (TNA: WO 33/1675)
    lists 6 HAA in Holyheadge, Blackheath Common, S.E.
    From index to Field Force Units (February 1942 - May 1944) (TNA: WO 33-1903): 5 digit unit serial for H.Q. 6 Heavy A.A. Regt. is 2202(a). Unfortunately no entries for the corresponding batteries or attached units in the series table (under 2202 ...). (This special index is a mess due to literally thousands of updates over 27 months, so not really too consistent reliable.)

    Conditions:
    mobile
    non-divisional (either G.H.Q, Corps or Army Troops)
    no special WE for the (planned) destination applicable
    not still at Home War Establishment (not unlikely)

    III/107/1 - Heavy Anti-Aircraft Regiment (Mobile) Ordnance Workshop Section
    comes with
    - Headquarters
    - a subsection for each battery of the A.A. Regiment
    - one radio maintenance subsection

    Subsection for a Heavy Anti-Aircraft Battery
    2 Staff Serjeants Armament Artificers
    1 Serjeant Artizan
    1 Corporal Artizan
    1 Lance-Corporal Artizan
    6 Artizans
    1 Storeman
    6 Non-tradesmen
    Attached:
    1 Cook, A.C.C.

    Trades contained in the above mentioned:
    1 Armament Artificer, Anti-aircraft
    1 Armament Artificer, Instruments, anti-aircraft
    1 Sheet metal worker
    1 Driver mechanic
    1 Electrician
    2 Fitters general
    2 Fitters M.V.
    1 Instrument mechanic
    1 Motor mechanic (trained in recovery duties)
    1 Storement (trained in technical and M.T. Stores)

    Non-tradesmen in the above mentioned:
    4 Drivers
    1 General dutyman
    1 Motor cyclists

    Transport:
    1 Motor cycle
    1 Car, 2-seater, 4-wheeled
    1 Lorry, 3-ton, 4-wheeled, stores (F.W.D. or lorry, 3-ton, 6-wheeled)
    1 Lorry, 3-ton, 4-wheeled, personnel
    1 Lorry, 3-ton, 6-wheeled, Machinery, R.A.O.C. (type I.30)
    1 Tractor, 6-wheeled, breakdown
    1 Trailer, 15-cwt. 2-wheeled, water, 180-gallons

    Weapons:
    1 Pistols, .38-inch
    18 Rifles, .303-inch
    1 Anti-Tank rifles, .55-inch.

    Aixman
     
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  8. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    Aixman. Thanks very much. It does show that the RAOC attached to a HAA Battery was quite a substantial number.

    Tim
     
  9. Aixman

    Aixman War Establishment addict Patron

    John's post #2 lists 97 all ranks including attached.

    My first "guess" in post #7 (III/107/1) has 101 all ranks, even the 4 cooks appear.
    An alternative for a non-mobile unit is III/52/1. According to this limited task this unit is much smaller, 72 all ranks including only a single cook. The above mentioned subsection for each battery is reduced from 19 to 6 all ranks.

    So III/107/1 will probably be the correct WE. Remarkable in John's numbers in post #2 is a total lack of Warrant Officers and Serjeants. In fact, 1 Officer (Subaltern, ordnance mechanical engineer, 4th class; either in headquarters or OC Radio Maintenance Subsection), 1 Warrant Officer class I (fitter, armament artificer), and 10 Staff Serjeants (9 armament artificers, 1 armourer) and 5 Serjeants (3 artizans, 1 clerk, 1 non-tradesman) are missing. According to the unit's given strength, 12 of them seem to have been made up by rank and file.

    Aixman

    Edit: typo
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2022
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  10. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

    Aixman, Apologies. I think you are correct. 101.

    John
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2022
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  11. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    I have done a count of the RAOC personnel listed in WO 361/2181 (BRE Pilot Roll RAOC) attached to 35 LAA and have come up with 1x Captain, 1x AQMS, 4x Sergeants, 1x Corporal, 3x L/Corporals, 25x Privates and 1 Cook attached from ACC. I have also done a quick check on WO 361/2195 (British Army in Java) and can find none from RAOC attached to 35 LAA (and precious few attached to 6 HAA). This may or may not indicate that there were no RAOC attached to a LAA Battery but only to RHQ or that when the 2 Batteries moved to Sumatra/Java they went without their RAOC attachments.
    Aixman - for the sake of completeness do you have a breakdown of the HQ unit in #7.
    Many thanks everyone for your help so far.

    Tim
     
  12. Aixman

    Aixman War Establishment addict Patron

    Tim,

    Please don't mix up or try to compare Workshop Sections for heavy and light A.A. Regiments, sections for regiments and subsections for batteries and for mobile or possible non-mobile units. I'll take your numbers for another search.

    Aixman
     
  13. Aixman

    Aixman War Establishment addict Patron

    Here you go Tim:

    Headquarters of III/107/1 - Heavy Anti-Aircraft Regiment (Mobile) Ordnance Workshop Section
    1 Captain O.M.E. 3rd class
    1 Subaltern O.M.E. 4th class
    1 Warrant Officer, class I Fitter, Armament artificer
    1 Staff Serjeant Armament artificer
    1 Staff Serjeant Armourer
    1 Serjeant Clerk
    1 Serjeant non-tradesman for regimental duties
    1 Corporal Artizan
    1 Corporal Storeman
    1 Corporal non-tradesman
    1 Lance-Corporal Artizan
    1 Lance-Corporal non-tradesman
    5 Artizans
    1 Clerk
    2 Storemen
    8 non-tradesmen
    1 Cook, A.C.C. attached

    Trades contained in the above mentioned:
    1 Armament Artificer, Anti-aircraft
    1 Armament Artificer, Motor vehicle
    1 Armourer
    1 Blacksmith
    3 Drivers mechanic
    1 Turner
    1 Welder (acetylene and electric)
    1 Carpenter and joiner
    2 Clerks
    3 Storemen (trained in technical and M.T. stores).

    Non-tradesmen in the above mentioned:
    7 Drivers (includes 1 extra driver for "trucks, 15-cwt., generator" when issued)
    3 General dutymen (includes 1 Batman)
    1 Motor cyclist

    Transport:
    1 Motor cycle
    1 Car, 2-seater, 4-wheeled
    1 Truck, 15-cwt., 4-wheeled, Personnel
    1 Truck, 15-cwt., 4-wheeled, Machinery R.A.O.C. (type K.L.)
    1 Truck, 15-cwt., 4-wheeled, for generators (required for engine generators when machinery lorries are issued)
    2 Lorries, 3-ton, 4-wheeled, Machinery R.A.O.C. (types M and D1) (F.W.D. or lorries, 3-ton, 6-wheeled)
    2 Lorries, 3-ton, 4-wheeled, stores (F.W.D. or lorry, 3-ton, 6-wheeled)
    1 Lorry, 3-ton, 4-wheeled, Office and cooks
    1 Lorry, 3-ton, 4-wheeled, Shelter and tools.

    Weapons:
    4 Pistols, .38-inch
    25 Rifles, .303-inch
    1 Anti-Tank rifle, .55-inch.
    1 Light Machine Gun, .303-inch.

    Aixman
     
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  14. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    Aixman - thanks. This all makes sense for 6 HAA.

    Tim
     
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