RAF signal vehicle types.

Evening Les Sworn to Secrecy: Canadians on Radar, 1940-1945#

 

A winning team. With Ted, Les and Les how can we fail.

Ted's picture will be the GCI vehicles listed in Post 14. Types 405, 409 and 457A Radar 15 with its arrays dismantled for transit. This unit does have a Type 456 generator with it. I have now three sources which say that the winch is in fact a handwinch mounted in a Crossley GS Tender. One account is actually from such a GCI (FDP) unit.

Les's picture is the standard House Type F Body. Fitted for several roles including Type 100, 105 and workshops.

Two interesting snippets:
Type numbers should have been shown on the nearside door only. I have seen them on the offside though. Surprising how many photos show the offside only.

Many good sources for radar come from Canada since the Canadian Government undertook to recruit and train 5,000 radar technicians in the comparative safety of Canada. I have not had time to study Ted's link but it looks very comprehensive.

Mike

PS. I have looked at Ted's link now. Pages 56 and 57 are both of the GCI unit with Types 405, 409, 456 and 457A. Page 57 shows a Thorneycroft Nubian in the foreground. Ted suggested this as the winch truck earlier.

 

Another unit attached to 85 Group GCI. None of these vehicles have been identified.

Mobile Signals Unit Type 'C'.
1 3ton Tender
1 15cwt Van
2 Signals Type 314
2 Signals Type 315
1 Signals Type 346
2 Signals Type 347
2 Signals Type 372
1 Signals Type 430

These seem to be the most numerous of the Mobile Signals Units. Nearly 100 are listed for 2 TAF.

Who knows the dimensions of the Nubian Winch Lorry? This could be one of the mystery RN vehicles.

Mike

 

Another unit attached to 85 Group GCI.

'Y' Section.
30cwt Tender
Signals Type 123.
Signals Type 367A.
Signals Type 115.
Signals Type 316.

'Y' Section is for listening in to enemy aircraft transmissions.

Type 367A is an Austin K6, F Type body, Mobile Servicing Workshop.
Type 316 is a Bedford MW, E Type body, Mobile Servicing Workshop.
This seems a lot of servicing. Were they being used to house listening sets?
Types 123 and 115 are unknown. Presumably one is a transmitter for reporting.

Mike

 

Another unit attached to 85 Group GCI. None of these vehicles have been identified.

Mobile Signals Unit Type 'C'.
1 3ton Tender
1 15cwt Van
2 Signals Type 314
2 Signals Type 315
1 Signals Type 346
2 Signals Type 347
2 Signals Type 372
1 Signals Type 430

These seem to be the most numerous of the Mobile Signals Units. Nearly 100 are listed for 2 TAF.

Who knows the dimensions of the Nubian Winch Lorry? This could be one of the mystery RN vehicles.

Mike

Typr 314 is a Bedford MW. E body very low power twin channel Transmitter (HF). ( later on Bedford KC.)
Typre 315 as 314 but is the Receivers.
Type 346 Austin K2 or Ford Wot3 twin 5.6 Kva power supply vehicle based on GS body.

The type number for the Nubian winch is a RVT 460, I have attached a picture poor quality I am afraid; Its RVT numbere is given in the text of the document the pic was scanned from at Kew.

 

Another unit attached to 85 Group GCI.

'Y' Section.
30cwt Tender
Signals Type 123.
Signals Type 367A.
Signals Type 115.
Signals Type 316.

'Y' Section is for listening in to enemy aircraft transmissions.

Type 367A is an Austin K6, F Type body, Mobile Servicing Workshop.
Type 316 is a Bedford MW, E Type body, Mobile Servicing Workshop.
This seems a lot of servicing. Were they being used to house listening sets?
Types 123 and 115 are unknown. Presumably one is a transmitter for reporting.

Mike
The only addition I can make here is RVT 115 is a Bedford MW E body low power Transmitter and Receiver single channel.
TED

 

Two more small sub units attached to 85 Group GCI.

Mobile Signal Section Type 'B'.
2 X Signals Type 306 with 4 men.

This is a part of a larger unit. MSU Type B has 55 men and there is only one per Group. Its role is unknown.

Mobile Signals Unit Type 'T'.
Signals Type 398A.
Signals Type 346. 30cwt Fordson with two 5.6Kva generators.

Mike.

 

I think the RAF also used some specially adapted Daimler Dingos for FAC and liaison with ground units on the advance into Germany

 

The last (as far as I know) sub units landing with 85 Group GCI.

Special Extra Unit for 85 Group Control Centre. (The Control Centre itself would not arrive for some weeks).
2 3ton Tender.
2 Signals Type 131.
30 men.

Naval Liaison Officer (Air) Signal Section.
1 8cwt Morris PU.
1 30cwt Dodge.
9 men.

A RN unit providing communications between 85 Group GCI and naval air defence. Presumably to prevent ships from firing on 85 Group night fighters.

85 Group was specifically responsible for air defence of the beachhead. It would develop two Base Defence Sectors. 24 BDS in the British area and 21 BDS in the US area. The US would not have night fighters operational for some time. Both Sectors landed a Ground Control Interception unit to control the night fighters flying in from the UK. No 85 Group units would not operate from French airfields for many weeks.

It was intended that the units described above would land on the second tide on D day and be set up and ready to control night fighters by dusk. The 24 BDS units landed on Gold and Juno beaches. 21 BDS units landed on Omaha.

Jedburgh 22,
I have not seen mention of Daimler Scout Cars being used by Forward Controllers. However they did use Jeeps on occasion so it could be done. The Scout Car could have just the observer and a wireless link to a larger vehicle carrying the personnel and equipment. I will look out for this.

Mike.

 

Hi All, first posting on this site and looking forward to picking your collective brains!

I've been going through my fathers war record and I see that he was in a mobile signals unit, having been an instructor in Cranwell. It then shows him having attended UUF Chigwell in April 1944; any ideas what that might have been?
Thereafter he was in 5287 G Unit 85 Group in May 1944. What was that?

Its quite fascinating trying to back track and see what he did and where he went, just wish I'd listened to him more attentively while he was alive!
Many thanks for any information you might have.

 

Welcome to the forum Stressed.

You will see that we are not well informed on matters concerning MSUs. We are trying to pool what little we know.

I can tell you that 85 Group was part of 2nd Tactical Air Force tasked with the air defence of the Allied beach areas in Normandy, and then for the defence of base areas in general in NW Europe. Only the forward control elements went to France in the first few weeks, mainly Ground Controlled Interception units and their associated signals. The aircraft operated from bases in the UK.

Chigwell was the depot at which RAF signals units, including radar, were equipped and the personnel trained in the use of the new equipment. It was all very secret.

A Mobile Signals Unit Type 'G' was a unit of 17 men and seems to have been a servicing unit. None went overseas in the first month but eventually all of those in 85 Group would go. As you see we have only looked at 85 Group units landing on D day.

If you have any more information at all it would help build up a picture.

Mike

 

Many thanks Trux for your kind welcome and additional information. Dad was a Corporal in the RAF and a Wireless Operator and Mechanic, I think they called them WOMs and he taught in Cranwell for about a year and a half. after that he mentioned going south with vehicles and being in a field on the south coast under camoflage with a hundred or more similar vehicles all awaiting the big day. He said that on D-Day some vehicles moved out and then more as the days and weeks went by. His was about the last to leave the field on D-Day plus thirty (or 40).

Were there several vehicles normally operating together or did they operate in pairs or threes or indeed alone? Who was in charge of the truck and how many was a crew?

I'm not sure where he travelled altogether but in the end he was in Hamburg for a year.
Many thanks for your time.

 

Stressed,

RAF Signals are complex and not my speciality but I offer the following.

MSU 5287 G does not seem to have gone overseas in June or July. It is true that all 85 Group mobile units would be concentrated near the South Coast ports waiting to be called forward. However the armies advance was not as rapid as expected and there was no room in the beachhead for 85 Groups air defence units airfields. This suggests that 5387 G was a signals unit serving the airfields.

A MSU Type G had 17 men and typically such units manned both ends of a wireless link. RAF signals normally had the wireless equipment in two vehicles, one transmitter and one receiver. There was usually another vehicle for stores, supplies, cooking equipment, baggage etc.

So probably we have a serjeant in charge and then two sections each of 8 men with a corporal in charge. Each section with two wireless vehicles, 15cwt or 3ton depending on the equipment carried, plus a 15cwt GS truck. The sections would be fairly independent from the technical and internal organisational aspects, but closely integrated with the unit to which they were attached.

I am afraid that at the moment I have no specific information on 'G' Type units.

When they did go overseas 85 Group airfields were in Normandy to protect the base areas. Later in the year they moved up to Belgium as the base area was then around Antwerp and Brussels.

Mike

 

In relation to 24 BDS, the recollectons of Freddie Corpes can be read at DDNF | D-Day Memories | Freddie Corpes

"Lieutenant Commander (A) Gerald F Arnold RNVR and I were appointed to the Staff of the Flag Officer, British Assault Area, Rear Admiral Rivett-Carnac, and attached to the mobile HQ of the 24 Base Defence Sector, RAF as Naval Air Liaison Officers. Our naval party included eight Naval Ratings (Telegraphists, etc) and two Royal Marine drivers for our two vehicles.................."

 

Might be getting off thread here but, relating to 24 BDS arrival in Normandy:

The Operations Record Book of No. 2 Beach Squadron records that on D-Day:

“The situation was that as a whole, No 7 Beach Group was confined to the Beaches, owing to extensive enemy mining in the immediate hinterland. Only one Beach Exit was open and the route out was not shown to be clear.
The R.A.F. vehicles which commenced to arrive at about 1515 hours were being parked on the extremity of MIKE Green Beach and the beginning of LOVE Sector, causing intense congestion.
The area was being sniped from the wood around the chateaux at VAUX (1/25000 sheet 37/18 S.E. ref 9485), where there was one 3 inch mortar and one 88mm gun.
As no information could be obtained as to the state of the proposed R.A.F. Assembly Area, except that the R.A.F. D Day site was untenable, Flight Lieutenant P.M. Butler (Officer i/c Assembly Area), who landed early, carried out a single-handed recce on foot and found an area on the main route off the Beach, which the local French citizens told him to be clear of mines. Under arrangements made by S/Ldr Sandison, the remainder of the T.A.F. personnel and vehicles landing, together with those already on the Beach, were moved to this area. There they remained as no information could be obtained as to the state of their destinations. Part of them were due to move across LOVE to the JIG/KING Area and it was confirmed with the Army that no route was opened.”
Around 4pm on 7th June, notification was received that the route GRAYE-SUR-MER – ST.CROIX-SUR-MER – CREPON was free from snipers and the JIG/KING R.A.F. personnel and vehicles went forward.

 

Most illuminating Trux and I'm grateful for your detailed knowledge and time taken to reply.

 

Nofnet,

Thanks. That is all very useful and interesting. I added the Naval Liaison Officer as an after thought never thinking anyone would know anything about it. You are not off topic only ahead a little. I shall look at 83 Group and then the RAF elements of Beach Groups. I have been collecting information on both.

Stressed,
I fear my knowledge is general rather than specific on this topic. However you can see that we are slowly building a picture.

Mike

PS
Nofnet,
Thanks also for the link which I have now looked at. More fascinating material. By one of those coincidences which seem to happen fairly often my father was on one of the RAF Rescue launches mentioned at Courseulles. He was also involved in picking up survivors from the tragic mishap when 2 TAF Typhoons attacked a flotilla of RN minesweepers. This underlines the need for Liaison Officers.

 

I know what the vehicle and personnel establishment was for the RAF elements of the Beach Groups, so I can help with that.
I’m very keen to see the JUNO Landing Tables to find out when, where and how the various elements of No. 2 RAF Beach Squadron were scheduled to land. I have this information for No. 1 Beach Squadron (SWORD) and No. 4 Beach Squadron (GOLD) but don’t know where to get hold of the JUNO Landing Tables. I would very much appreciate any help with this.
In the JUNO landing Tables I would be looking for No. 2 RAF Beach Unit (HQ and Signals Section), No. 103 RAF Beach Section and No. 104 RAF Beach Section.

 

I know what the vehicle and personnel establishment was for the RAF elements of the Beach Groups, so I can help with that.
I’m very keen to see the JUNO Landing Tables to find out when, where and how the various elements of No. 2 RAF Beach Squadron were scheduled to land. I have this information for No. 1 Beach Squadron (SWORD) and No. 4 Beach Squadron (GOLD) but don’t know where to get hold of the JUNO Landing Tables. I would very much appreciate any help with this.
In the JUNO landing Tables I would be looking for No. 2 RAF Beach Unit (HQ and Signals Section), No. 103 RAF Beach Section and No. 104 RAF Beach Section.


Oooh look forward to hearing more. I want to model an RAF Signals unit or Beach unit. so would be very interested to hear more .

regards TED

 

Nofnet,

I have all the landing tables for D Day, and most for D+1, for all three beaches. Those for Juno are dated March/April. These are the latest found so far but such evidence as I have suggests that there was little change except in the specialised armour and various army signals units. I have spent the last year transcribing them and finished only a couple of weeks ago. I will have a quick look at Juno but you are welcome to a complete set. E mail attachment will be the best means of sending it.

I also look forward to hearing more. I have found some good photos on the IWM site. I also wish to make a model but in 1:285 scale. I ran out of space long ago.

Mike.