RAF Cap with white band?

Discussion in 'The War In The Air' started by researchingreg, Dec 13, 2015.

  1. researchingreg

    researchingreg Well-Known Member

  2. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Hi

    I believe the white band around his hat signifies he is in training, and not yet 'qualified' - but I am not an expert on this subject, I just remember things from other threads.

    TD
     
  3. researchingreg

    researchingreg Well-Known Member

    Tricky Dicky

    Thanks for the reply, it would make sense as he must have been in training for aircrew.
     
  4. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Aircrew u/t..... under training and before passing out as Sergeants or as commissioned aircrew.....designated by the Air Ministry as Cadets.
     
  5. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    Presumably researching in respect of http://internationalbombercommandcentre.com/archive/?f=1&alphabet=B&page=89
    I can only find 4 RAFVR crew members
    BRAMLEY, RONALD ARTHUR. Rank: Sergeant. Service No: 1150208. Date of Death: 08/11/1941. Age: 26.
    Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 150 Sqdn.
    Panel Reference: Panel 40. Memorial: RUNNYMEDE MEMORIAL.
    Additional Information: Son of Sydney Arthur and Sarah Minnie Bramley, of Borough Green, Kent.

    ATKINS, LLOYD JAMES. Rank: Sergeant. Service No: 1164953. Date of Death: 08/11/1941. Age: 20.
    Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 150 Sqdn.
    Panel Reference: Panel 38. Memorial: RUNNYMEDE MEMORIAL.
    Additional Information: Son of Charles Coles Atkins and Elsie Atkins, of Knowle, Bristol.

    FARMAN, SIDNEY GEORGE THOMAS. Rank: Sergeant. Service No: 1252028. Date of Death: 08/11/1941. Age: 19.
    Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 150 Sqdn.
    Panel Reference: Panel 43. Memorial: RUNNYMEDE MEMORIAL.
    Additional Information: Son of Sidney George and Alice Lucy Farman, of Gorleston-on-Sea, Norfolk.

    KNIGHTON, VICTOR GEORGE. Rank: Sergeant. Service No: 929872. Date of Death: 08/11/1941. Age: 22.
    Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 150 Sqdn.
    Panel Reference: Panel 46. Memorial:RUNNYMEDE MEMORIAL.
    Additional Information: Son of Herbert and Ethel Knighton, of Hounslow, Middlesex.

    Presumably the 2 others were RAAF. There were three lost that night, Brown was in 102 Sqdn, so perhaps these...

    BRYANT, RONALD OWEN. Rank: Sergeant. Service No: 402725. Date of Death: 08/11/1941. Age: 27.
    Regiment/Service: Royal Australian Air Force
    Panel Reference: Panel 62. Memorial: RUNNYMEDE MEMORIAL.
    Additional Information: Son of Samuel and Sarah Bryant; husband of Christina Middleton Bryant, of Wollongong, New South Wales, Australia.

    WESTON, NEVILLE JACK. Rank: Sergeant. Service No: 400245. Date of Death: 08/11/1941. Age: 25.
    Regiment/Service: Royal Australian Air Force
    Panel Reference: Panel 63. Memorial: RUNNYMEDE MEMORIAL.
    Additional Information: Son of George James Weston and Annie Weston, of North Balwyn, Victoria, Australia.

    Ah! Maybe you're with this lot? http://www.wartimememoriesproject.com/ww2/view.php?uid=207892



    EVANS, HYWELL. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: W.Op./Air Gnr. Service No: 1162520. Date of Death: 08/11/1941. Age: 20.
    Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 150 Sqdn.
    Grave Reference: Plot 85. Row B. Grave 2. Cemetery: AMSTERDAM NEW EASTERN CEMETERY.
    Additional Information: Son of Richard Amry Evans and Lilian Joyce Evans, of Ferndale, Glamorgan.

    PARSONS, WILLIAM FREDERICK. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 917000. Date of Death: 08/11/1941.
    Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 150 Sqdn.
    Grave Reference: Plot 85. Row B. Grave 6. Cemetery: AMSTERDAM NEW EASTERN CEMETERY
     
  6. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    No 150 Squadron was initially equipped with the Battle and one of the Advanced Air Striking Force,France squadrons which received a real mauling in the Battle of France.Withdrawing to England it converted to the Wellington in October 1940 at RAF Newton after giving up the Battle in September 1940.From there the squadron had a 15 month stay at RAF Snaith (Pollington airfield) from 10 July 1941 until October 1942 when it departed for Blida,North Africa from RAFKirmington....an element of the squadron was left behind to reform, along with an element of No 142 Squadron, No 166 Squadron.

    No 150 Squadron after a few wanderings became a new Lancaster squadron along with No 170 Squadron, based at RAF Hemswell from November 1944 to the end of the war

    RAF Snaith has a very interesting memorial garden on what was the Station HQ. It covers No 51 Squadron who were here from October 1942 until the end of the war,more than No 150 Squadron but if I remember correctly there is the odd plaque to No 150 Squadron ...welL worth a visit.There used be three pubs in Pollinton village which were frequented by the RAF.In one there is single picture of a No 150 Squadron Wellingon which operated out of Snaith.
     
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  7. researchingreg

    researchingreg Well-Known Member

    Thanks for all the information. The reason I am interested in Ronald Arthur Bramley. is that my mother-in-law, was engaged to an RAF Sgt Navigator called Ron (no last name) who was killed on late 1941 and as we have two photos of her with him in uniform, one photo was taken in Newark. I am reasonably certain it is the same man as we think the photo (definitely of him) taken as a cadet) on the above post obtained from his family. I think the ears, nose and eyebrows match although the hair style is slightly different.

    Have a look at these and see if you think they match he would be 26 years old in the photos View attachment Joodi and Sgt Ron 1941 Newark.tiff
     
  8. researchingreg

    researchingreg Well-Known Member

  9. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Name: Ronald A Bramley
    Mother's Maiden Name: Taylor
    Registration Year: 1915
    Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
    Registration district: Malling
    Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
    Inferred County: Kent
    Volume: 2a
    Page: 1408


    Name: Ronald Arthur Bramley
    Age: 26
    Birth Date: abt 1915
    Death Date: 18 Nov 1941
    Cemetery: The Runnymede Memorial Part II
    Burial Country: England
    Father: Sydney Arthur Bramley
    Mother: Sarah Minnie Bramley
    Regimental Number: 1150208
    Region or Memorial: Memorial Register


    Name: Sergeant Ronald Bramley
    Death Date: 8 Nov 1941
    Cemetery: Runnymede Memorial
    Burial or Cremation Place: Englefield Green, Runnymede Borough, Surrey, England


    England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1966

    Name: Ronald Arthur Bramley
    Probate Date: 30 Oct 1951
    Registry: London, England
    Death Date: 8 Nov 1941
    Death Place: Kent, England

    The probate was paid to Sydney Arthur Bramley (his father)

    Has you mother-in-law ever mentioned that he was from Kent??

    TD
     
  10. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    If you can clean up the "Wings" insignia and make out an "N" in the circle, then it will confirm at least him as a Navigator.
    Personally, they look different enough not to be able to confirm the same man, but having both in your familys possession indicates they probably are the same, allowing for the stress of Operational flying to wipe away that fresh faced and happy youngster.

    As there would have been a relationship had he survived, it might possibly be worth contacting the RAF to enquire as to whether his Service Records might be released to you...? Nothing to lose by asking and perhaps much to gain.
    I think you can establish a definite connection by the family still having the photos.

    For what little it may add, these casualties had Service Numbers not too removed from Ronalds..
    WORTH, BASIL HARVEY SIMMONDS. Rank: Aircraftman 1st Class. Service No:1150072. Date of Death: 03/12/1940. Age: 20.
    Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve.
    Grave Reference: Plot 15. Grave 411. Cemetery: ENGLEFIELD GREEN CEMETERY.
    Additional Information: Son of George Frederick and Mary Ann Worth, of Thorpe.

    COWEN, PETER. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Pilot. Service No:1150082. Date of Death: 15/09/1941.
    Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 257 Sqdn.
    Grave Reference: Plot 1. Row E. Grave 23. Cemetery: BERGEN GENERAL CEMETERY.

    HALL, JACKSON WILLIAM. Rank: Aircraftman 1st Class. Service No:1150111. Date of Death: 05/07/1941. Age: 21.
    Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
    Panel Reference: Panel 57. Memorial: RUNNYMEDE MEMORIAL.
    Additional Information: Son of George and Ella G. E. Hall, of Halstead, Essex.

    ALLEN, KEITH RUTHVEN. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Pilot. Service No:1150195. Date of Death: 07/04/1941.
    Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve.
    Grave Reference: II. D. 9. Cemetery: BONE WAR CEMETERY, ANNABA.

    It's possible therefore that his crew had not had that many missions before being lost.
    I can't find a match for the loss as to which Wellington he was in.

    Nothing ventured....

    Add: You've helped me learn something new - I recognised Englefield Green as the site for Runnymede, but never realised there was a Cemetery close by.
     
  11. researchingreg

    researchingreg Well-Known Member

    Kevin Battle

    The Wellington Ronald Arthur Bramley was in, was a 150 Squadron Vickers 271 Wellington 1c Serial Number R1606 Code JN-G RAF - Snaith Take Off 18.20 7 Nov 1941– Mission Mannheim – Crashed off Dutch Coast. (Lisselmeer, East of Medebilk). Crash Time 00:41 8 Nov- 1941. Apparently his body was never found according to his family, however he is commemorated at Runneymede. Also Mannheim was never hit on this night according to reports.
     
  12. snailer

    snailer Country Member

    Hello,

    The brevet looks like an ‘E’ or possibly ‘B’ . But along with the ’N’ these badges didn’t come into circulation until Sept 1942 so I’m certain this can’t be a man who died in 1941.

    Rgds

    Pete
     
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  13. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    Thanks, it had to be near the Dutch coast, and I wonder if when the Dutch began large scale reclamation of the Ijseelmeer whether any wreckage of R1606 might have been found. There certainly seem to have been many lost in this inland sea during WW2 and I'm sure some were found during the reclamation process.
    Loss data seems to indicate it crashed somewhere to the east of Medemblick, and Lancaster R5755 together with Hampden AT154 (Back to Normandy site) appear to have been located.
     
  14. researchingreg

    researchingreg Well-Known Member

    The photos are dated 1941
     
  15. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Bomber Command routes to the Ruhr were very vulnerable from offshore flak ships off the Dutch coast....this Wellington was probably a flak ship victim.

    t was a situation which continued virtually up to the end of the war as Holland was largely not overrun.It would be interesting to see the losses from such flak ships

    Coastal Command mounted raids against these defences from time to time.
     
  16. researchingreg

    researchingreg Well-Known Member

    Observers typically used to navigate, act as bomb aimers and conduct a variety of other jobs in RAF. The Observer brevet was replaced in early 1941 when the introduction of 4-engined types such as the Stirling and increasing navigation, EW and defensive systems demanded greater specialisation in aircrew roles. Accordingly, the 'O' brevet was replaced by seperate Air Bomber (aka Bomb aimer, 'B' brevet), Air Navigator (N) and Air Engineer (E) roles. Like the WSO brevet of today however, many Observers continued to wear their original brevets rather than the 'N' to which they were entitled.
     
  17. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    I am unable to trace a connection with the Newark area close proximity RAF airfields and Sergeant Bramley since it appears that activities at RAF Ossington and Windthorpe got underway after November 1941..Other nearby airfields were Syerston on the A46 south of Newark.and Swinderby,on the A46 north of Newark and towards the Trent,RAF Wigsley.

    Was the Newark area,the home of researchingreg's mother in law?

    However I do recognise the backdrop to the photograph showing the buildings in the background which I think were maltster buildings which were situated on the right hand side of the old AI which ran through the town.....those buildings were removed as the A 46,(now with its own bypass) the renamed section of the old A1 from the Newark A1 bypass was dualled and the area developed about 20 -25 years ago.

    It looks to me that the photograph was taken opposite the link road which leads to the main line railway station,Newark Northgate.
     
  18. AlanW

    AlanW Senior Member

    I'm sorry, but to me, it seems the photo's show two different people, little things like the hairstyle, colour of hair, ears, and the nose could'nt be a more different shape...but !
     
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  19. researchingreg

    researchingreg Well-Known Member

    Yes you are probably right, as I said before it was a long shot, however I thought the ears and nose and eyebrows were the same although the hairstyle is different. I'll see if Ron Bramley's family have any further thoughts.
     
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  20. snailer

    snailer Country Member

    Rather than have a yes he was, no he wasn’t discussion in respect of air crew categories and badges and when they came into being can I quote from “Observers and Navigators and other non-pilot aircrew in the RFC, RNAS and RAF” by Wing Commander C.G. Jefford MBE, BA, RAF Retd. Not only because it is ‘The Bible’ on such matters but also because he cites Air Ministry Orders and files held at Kew as his sources so you can go and check them yourself if you are still not sure.

    “1942 The Ottawa Air Training Conference- The introduction of the air bomber and the replacement of the observer by the navigator. p160

    “…an appropriate forum at which to discuss this and many other matters was provided by The Air Training Conference held in Ottawa in May-June 1942” (AIR 20/4101 Ottawa Air Training Conference 19 May - 5 June 1942)
    He notes that pre conference briefings had taken place and the planning for provision of air bombers was well in hand and the trade was formally introduced while the conference was still in progress" ( AMO A.502/42 of 21 May 1942 )

    Regarding the air bomber he states:-

    “While his primary tasks were to be the aiming and dropping of bombs, an air bomber was also to be trained in navigation so that, by providing him the pinpoints and other visual clues, he could act as the ’eyes’ of the designated navigator within a crew. Furthermore, apart from being able to assist the pilot when required, the air bomber was also to be qualified in gunnery so that he could man the nose turret. Such multi-skilled crewmen would plainly have to be very capable individuals and their entry standard, rate of pay and commissioning quota were to be similar to those previously applied only to pilots and observers and, like them, once qualified, they were to hold the minimum rank of sergeant.
    Associated with the advent of the air bomber had been the introduction of the navigator, although it had initially been planned to retain some categories of observer. This was causing some confusion in Ottawa and the British High Commission eventually sought clarification from London. This was provided by a signal of 27th May which confirmed that, while navigators were to be introduced for most roles, observers were to be retained for general reconnaissance aircraft and certain light bombers, and announced that a new sub category, the observer (W/T), was to be introduced for Mosquito bombers. The need to respond to this question having concentrated minds, however, it was soon appreciated that this was unnecessarily complicated and on 2 June the Air Council decided to do away with the observer altogether in favour of variety of sub categories of navigator”
    . (AIR 6/73 minutes of Air Council Meeting 10(42) held on June 2 1942)

    1942 The rationalisation of air crew categories p161

    “… These topics had been discussed at Ottawa and there had been broad agreement that it was time for reform and a revised matrix of air crew categories was eventually introduced in July 1942” (AMO A. 746/42 of 23 July 1942)

    1942 New air crew - new badges p162

    “Two months after the revision of air crew categories had been announced the changes involved were highlighted by the authorisation of new air crew badges” (AMO A.1019/42 of 17 September 1942) “All of these were variations on the theme of the air gunners badge of 1939, the only difference being the monogram contained within the laurel leaf.”

    As you can see this did not happen in 1941 but 1942.
     
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