RAF 298 Squadron Halifax LL343 SOE Loss 20.9.1944

Discussion in 'The War In The Air' started by Fred Wilson, Mar 24, 2014.

  1. Fred Wilson

    Fred Wilson Member

    Edited. Thanks to the enormous help, seen in the replies below.


    I am on an interesting challenge.
    The auto mechanic who my life's happiness is dependant... is on a mission to learn what happened to his uncle.

    This thread is focused on assembling additional information and family contacts for the RAF Special Operations Executive (SOE) 298 Squadron.
    http://www.pegasusarchive.org/normandy/unit_R298.htm
    ________________

    Firstly we will focus on improving the information for the Loss Record for British Subject Francis Sayles and crew.

    Interim Editable Loss Card posted at: http://lostaircraft.com/database.php?mode=viewentry&e=29899
    Please proof read and do any corrections needed. Tnx one and all!

    Date Aircraft Type & Serial Unit Crew Location Cause Sources / References
    31.8.44 Halifax V LL343 T-L 298 Sqdn RAF
    F/O William Wallace Brown RCAF - Pilot - died
    Sgt William Bradley RAFVR - Flight Engineer - died
    F/O Robert Denver MacDuff RNZAF - Navigator - died
    F/Sgt Frederick Pearson RAFVR - Wireless Op / Gunner - died
    F/O Francis Sayles DFM - Air Bomber - died
    F/Sgt John Bonsall Smith RAFVR - Wireless Op / Gunner - died
    All commemorated on the Runnymede Memorial,
    UK English Channel

    Took Off from Tarrant Rushton 23:59 hrs on SOE operation OSRIC 122 to the Diest area of Belgium, believed shot down over Straights of Dover by Mtr.ObGefr. Baumann Flak Ship VP-Flottilla Windhuk off Walcheren Island which guarded the entrances to the Scheldt rivers at position AN8762 off the Dutch coast.
    Page 126 Flights of the Forgotten

    Further research and information:

    Harrington Museum Aircraft lost on Allied Forces Special Duty Operations (pdf)
    http://harringtonmuseum.org.uk/Aircraft%20lost%20on%20Allied%20Forces%20Special%20Duty%20Operations.pdf


    http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/archive/index.php?t-19029.html
    http://www.wingstovictory.nl/database/database_detail-en.php?wtv_id=414
    http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/20498-help-with-tombs-of-unknown-airmen-in-netherlands-may-be-my-grandfather/

    The families have been told that:
    a) This Special Operations Mission remains classified to this day under the The Official Secrets Acts 1911 to 1989 and NO FURTHER INFORMATION will be provided.

    - I would have thought that information would have been released by now!
    _____________________

    Speculation is that for some or all "top secret" Special Operations Missions:
    1. Crew members were given false names and fake personal ID numbers.
    2. They flew in fake squadrons from fake wings from fake airfields.
    3. Aircraft that landed heavily damaged at RAF Carnaby and RAF Woodbridge, Manston South coast emergency landing ground for bomber crews were possibly stripped of their Serial Numbers, Identifiers, Parts numbers and that these were applied to Aircraft destined for Special Ops to thwart Axis investigators.

    Any truth to these rumours? Interesting spy versus spy policy if in fact an operational policy and procedure!
     
  2. AlanW

    AlanW Senior Member

    Fred,
    First port of call, the CWGC, does not show any loss for a Frank (Francis) Sales, RAF, not even in a middle name, and the GRO for the period 1942 to 45, only shows one Frank Sales, and he was Royal Navy. The operation would not be classified this far on, and if, (which there is'nt ) there was a record of him on CWGC, with date of death, it would be relatively easy to find out what happened to him. Of the 3 speculations that the family have, the first two can also be discounted, and even if true, he would still have been listed on CWGC under his real name. This would also apply if he was attached to USAAF, I would suggest that getting a copy of the death certificate for this person, would be the next step.
    Alan.
     
  3. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    Fred: Interesting challenge!
    Fake Name and ID/Service Number;
    False serials/Squadron/Group/Airfield - hopefully not false wings!
    Date of Loss uncertain;
    Aircraft type uncertain;
    RAF or USAAF mission......
    ... and a secret mission to somewhere still bound by Official Secrets Act!
    You do pick 'em -
    ... you might have to be prepared to walk!
    Can I look for a needle in a haystack, please?
     
  4. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Hi Fred,

    Can we find out 'who' told the family that???????? - i.e. the source of the information.

    TD
     
  5. bill24chev

    bill24chev Junior Member

    138(SD) Sqn RAF and 161(SD) Sqn RAF provided the aircraft for SOE operations in Europe in WW2,They where both based at RAF Tempsford in Bedfordshire but did use Tangmere on the South Coast as a staging airfied, especially for Lysander ops to France to give theaircraft a slightly better operating range.

    I know138 Sqn. suffered a number of casualties in 1943, many of them connnected to the"Englander Spiel" when the Abwher controlled captured agents in Holland.
     
  6. mhuxt

    mhuxt Junior Member

    Did your man have a middle initial? I think the CWGC site allows searching on initials (remember to put a space between letters, no dots). Will be a huge number of hits but...

    I think the service number you've given must indeed be incorrect, it's for a Sergeant named Trevor John Cox, who rests in the Rheinberg Cemetery:

    http://twgpp.org/information.php?id=3464982

    Best place to ask about RAF Service numbers is the "RAF Commands Forum" - the knowledgeable folks there may be able to say for sure where in the sequence the digit is incorrect or missing, assuming the family knows the fellow's age / area of enlistment. At the very least, they may have helpful suggestions, much more than myself.

    http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?1-General-Category

    Not sure why any SOE sortie would be still secret, there's 619 pages of information on SOE Ops losses here (can't find your man):

    https://www.google.com.au/url?q=http://harringtonmuseum.org.uk/Aircraft%2520lost%2520on%2520Allied%2520Forces%2520Special%2520Duty%2520Operations.pdf&sa=U&ei=4yswU8GUJcjVkgWrp4CwCA&ved=0CCIQFjAA&sig2=ORKwcAwuNP96HRjvBe3B_g&usg=AFQjCNE037cPI50ersSWour27tUYsxIAUA

    Not Poddington but Harrington? Harrington (as per the link above) was the base for the USAAF's "Carpetbaggers" special ops OSS unit.

    On the off chance it was Harrington, then you must visit Thomas Ensminger's staggering Carpetbaggers website:

    http://www.801492.org/FirstTimers.htm

    (Note the "return to main menu" link at the bottom of that page.) I can't find a Sales there in the casualty lists, but I've barely scraped the tip of the iceberg there. Maybe try the webmaster.

    Any chance your man used another name to get around personal or Service issues? Mother's maiden name perhaps? Worth asking the question.

    Strange question but, was Frank your man's given name, on his birth certificate, or was it just what everybody called him? Worth a try - there was a high-ranking RAF bod named "Bob", except that he was actually John Randall Daniel.
     
  7. mhuxt

    mhuxt Junior Member

    Hmmmm, I'm going to go to bed, I'm starting to jump at shadows.

    To wit:

    The Trevor John Cox whose gravestone I linked to above was an Air Gunner (same as your man), with service number 1193709 (same, so far as we know, as your man), who flew on 102 Squadron, which from August 1942 onwards was based at, wait for it, Pocklington (sounds like Poddington).


    More hmmm, only 31 men with the last name Sales are listed on the CWGC (I think Alan's already done this) - none of them have a service number even remotely similar to 1193709.
     
  8. Fred Wilson

    Fred Wilson Member

    Oh this is fun. I live for challenges like this!

    Twisted sister...
    I can find no record of Trevor John Cox or service number 1193709 or any relevant 102 Squadron loss on or about that date
    And ... no loss for anyone named T.Cox from the start of the war at http://lostaircraft.com/database.php

    Freddie! Never ever lend out Chorley. Remember our promise! Sheesh.

    The information above is from his family, who have repeatedly asked for information on his loss. Repeatedly told: Official Secrets Act.
    Mark Hopkins, nephew is off to England on Friday to visit a sick relative.
    The family will hunker down with what information we have and try to piece together as much information as possible for us.

    Thanks for this. Fun stuff.
     
  9. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    There is a Frank Sales that appears on a Naval memorial at Lowestoft:
    UK, Commonwealth War Graves, 1914-1921 and 1939-1947 about Frank Sales
    Name: Frank Sales
    Age: 19
    Birth Date: abt 1926
    Death Date: 24 Feb 1945
    Cemetery: Naval Memorials In The United Kingdom Lowestoft Part II
    Burial Country: England
    Father: Fred Sales
    Mother: Eleanor Jane Sales
    Service number: LT/JX 533365
    Region or Memorial: Memorial Register

    Searching Ancestry for Frank Sales births 1915 - 1925 (assumed about the right date of birth) there are 5 Frank Sales:

    1917 - Doncaster, Yorks
    1919 - Rotherham, Yorks
    1921 - Sculcoates, Yorks
    1922 - Mansfield
    1925 - Chesterfield

    TD
     
  10. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Trevor John Cox 1193709

    UK, Commonwealth War Graves, 1914-1921 and 1939-1947 about Trevor John Cox
    Name: Trevor John Cox
    Death Date: 26 Feb 1943
    Cemetery: Rheinberg War Cemetery
    Burial Country: Germany
    Service number: 1193709
    Region or Memorial: Germany

    Is this your man??

    The details read (original document via Ancestry) :
    Cox Sgt (W Op/Air Gnr) Trevor John 1193709 RAF VR 102 Sqdn 26 Feb 1943 Coll Grave 4.C.2-20 - I can send you a copy if you require.

    TD

    edited to add:
    http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=CO&GSpartial=1&GSbyrel=all&GScntry=8&GSsr=1321&GRid=18406238&
     
  11. Fred Wilson

    Fred Wilson Member

    Stumped. Does anyone have a Serial Number for the aircraft he was in?
    Trevor John Cox 1193709

    Is it possible his loss was not 102 Squadron?

    There is nothing to be found using all possible search queries at http://lostaircraft.com/database.php
    - noting an enormous number of aircraft losses from the first few years have yet to be added there.

    A big project for someone...
    Me? I am busy cross checking 1943 and 1944 losses this spring.
    - And adding new information from wonderful resources like here on http://ww2talk.com/

    Tnx!
     
  12. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Fred

    It might be narrowed down as this is a link to a site for another Halifax of 102 sqdn that was I would guess on the same raid as Sgt Cox, I note they were moved to Rheinberg War Cemetery and the grave reference is the same.

    http://www.102ceylonsquadron.co.uk/memLeonardDowdall.html

    Wireless Operator and Air gunner WO/AG
    Killed 26.02.1943
    Sgt. Gibbons Pilot.
    102 Squadron Halifax II HR669 DY–E
    Operation Koln (Cologne).
    Take off 1853.
    All crew laid to rest on 03/03/1943 in the Ehrenfriedhof at Koln-Sud.
    Then taken to Rheinburg.
    Plane was carrying a second Pilot, Sgt. J.L. Wilson whose body not found and is perpetuated at Runnymede Panel 170. Therefore it must be assumed that the crew had flown about a dozen operations. (still to be researched)
    Crew members initially buried in Cologne and later transferred to Rheinberg.
    Buried in Rheinberg war cemetery Coll. Grave 4 C 2-20.

    Interestingly enough when you try and search for Cox as a member of this squadron ( http://www.102ceylonsquadron.co.uk/memoriescrews.html) he does not appear ???????

    The only loss according to that web site for 102 sqdn in Feb 1943 was, as above:

    HR669 DY–E
    Sgt. Michael Gerrard Gibbons - Pilot - Aged 24 - (C.W.G.C.)
    Sgt. Louis John Langham - (Nav. B/A) - Aged 23 - (C.W.G.C.)
    P/O Leonard James Dowdall - WOp - Aged 35 - (C.W.G.C.)
    Sgt. Dennis Stanley Richings - AG - Aged 22 - (C.W.G.C.)
    Sgt. John William Hunt - AG - (C.W.G.C.)
    Sgt. Thomas Edward Russell - F/E - (C.W.G.C.)
    Sgt. John Leslie Wilson –2nd Pilot - Aged 24 - (C.W.G.C.)
    Sgt. Henry Easton Bradshaw - ? - Aged 21 - (C.W.G.C.)

    26/02/1943

    Koln (Cologne)



    TD
     
  13. Fred Wilson

    Fred Wilson Member

    Thanks to: http://www.aircrewremembered.com/BomberCommandDatabaseSearch/?s=50&q=Cox
    Halifax 11 W7919 DY-N Time of loss 1854 Target Koln. Shot down in target area.

    This brings up http://www.aircrewremembered.com/BomberCommandDatabaseSearch/?q=W7919

    Lindsay


    Halifax 11 W7919 DY-N 102 Squadron Location Duty Koln (one mention of Mannheim) Damaged by Ju 88

    Flight Lieutenant B K Lindsay Fate?
    Pilot Officer R S Burgher Killed
    Sergeant T J Cox Killed
    Sergeant E J Frith Killed
    Sergeant A R James Killed
    Sergeant J Peak Killed
    Sergeant W Stewart Killed
    Sergeant J Wilby Killed

    Now posted with details from here and at http://www.ww2f.com/ at: http://lostaircraft.com/database.php?mode=viewentry&e=29895
     
  14. snailer

    snailer Country Member

    Hi,
    Trevor John Cox discussed on this very forum less than a month ago http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/52142-trevor-john-cox-102-squadron/#entry611556

    With regard to the "Official Secrets" etc. I wonder if the family have at some time tried to get his Service records and been told to supply next of kin proof under the Data Protection Act and this has been misconstrued as the Official Secrets Act.

    Also the lostaircraft website seems to quote the now defunct lostbombers website as it's source, and consequently will have all the errors and omissions of the original site and probably a few more to boot.

    Rgds

    Pete
     
  15. Fred Wilson

    Fred Wilson Member

    The lostaircraft website is doing it RIGHT in their editable wiki. See: http://lostaircraft.com/database.php

    All WW2 aircraft losses are being entered into its database.
    RAF Fighter Command, USAAF Bomber and Fighter Commands, Luftwaffe.
    Russian, Italian, Japanese and Chinese fonts and translation are being implemented in order to enter their Bomber and Fighter Command losses too.

    Kuddos!
     
  16. snailer

    snailer Country Member

    It's not right if the information contained in it is wrong.

    You have edited that lostaircraft page yourself quoting this and the Trevor Cox thread as sources, yet you have included a crew member who had been killed the previous month who wasn't even mentioned in these threads, how does that make it RIGHT.
     
    Fred Wilson likes this.
  17. mhuxt

    mhuxt Junior Member

    Original Bomber Command loss cards have been uploaded here:

    http://www.lancasterbombers.net/lancasterbombers_v1_033.htm

    For what it's worth, the Harrington Museum pdf notes one 102 Sqn Halifax loss as part of its SOE database - an aircraft which crashed on a leafleting sortie. So perhaps "secret missions" entered the family consciousness that way, squadron ORB should give some indication.

    It's all so much speculation though at this point, what with the last name not giving any satisfaction with searches of the CWGC.
     
  18. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

  19. DaveB

    DaveB Very Senior Member

  20. DaveB

    DaveB Very Senior Member

    Or is it just a typo in the surname by the OP (or the aforementioned mechanic)??? (and an inaccurate service number.....)

    KIA 31/08/1944 with 298SQN - awarded DFM (when he was an SNCO) - http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2940951/SAYLES, FRANCIS


    648189 Francis SAYLES (52592). 4th June 1943 (London Gazette date of commission with previous enlisted man's number)

    http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/36144/supplements/3788


    Awarded the DFM - 648189 Sergeant Francis SAYLES, No. 166 Squadron - http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/36054/supplements/2731
     

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