Radio Network Diagram

I'm reasonably sure that in WW2 UK formation HQs didn't have a full Alternate command facility, although it seems that Corps HQ had a Rear HQ element that would have dealt with AQ matters and hosted the service commanders (RASC, RAOC, etc). However there was probably a 'Tac HQ' deployed as necessary and based on the Commander's and CRA's rovers and radio vehicles. However, an Armd Div HQ did have a troop in one of its sqns that provided advanced communications, but its not clear whether this supported a Tac HQ or a Step-up capability or both.

However, Organisation of HQRA in an infantry division clearly shows no step-up capability, in the way that UK Cold War Div and Corps HQs had them, for a div HQRA.

HQRA would usually have deployed as part of the Corps Main HQ. I've no idea how command vehicles were clustered (ie the Diamond system used in HQ 1(BR) Corps in the Cold War). UK radios such as No 22 and No 19 could be remoted, this means the radio site could have been some distance from the command vehicles. However, the org chart referenced above indicates that the main radio was installed in the main HQRA command vehicle (4 ton).

Obviously there were telephone exchanges in corps and div HQs, with lines both forwards and backwards, I assume that at least some of these circuits would have been Secraphone. I'd also assume there were telegraph cipher circuits that would be used for formal messages.

 

In #10 above : The Day Landings - Defence Academy after going to that link


-See 50 (Northumbrian) Infantry Division Normandy Assault – June 1944, Battlefield Tour 19 select and scroll down to signals (Section X) where the full nets are displayed. That link will take you to the document then Section X Appendix J will show the Net CRA to Bde to Field regiments Tac HQs etc.

 

Infantry battalion radio diagrams on page 45 of this website. There is also a comprehensive section about an Infantry Battalion Signals Platoon.

Joe Brown

 

...

Obviously there were telephone exchanges in corps and div HQs, with lines both forwards and backwards, I assume that at least some of these circuits would have been Secraphone. ...

A "Secraphone" would be?

 

A special version, the Secraphone, was produced by TMC during World War 2. It was generally known as a "Scrambler Phone" . It was built into a black case with a distinctive green handset (either moulded in green, or sometimes painted green) , and came with a box of electronics to scramble the voice frequencies of a call at one end and unscramble them at the other end.

A version was still in use in our Int Cells.

 

Thanks for the seraphone explination.

Still trying to get my head around how a Victor, William, or Yoke target order would be transmitted from the authorized OP/or initiator to the sundry batteries. The Op Plunder comms diagram suggests, but I'd seeking something more concrete.

 

In the worst case it would go up each step of the chain particularly if it was a request from an unauthorised observer. Ie to bty CP, Regt CP, Div HQRA, Corps HQRA. HQ AGRA would pick it up from the divisional or corps arty nets. Not sure about army because there was no army HQRA, but I think Corps HQRA may have been on each others nets. Obviously if the originator belonged to a regt under AGRA command it would be slightly different route.

Authorised observers might be on any of the nets, particularly for regt, division and AGRA authorised. Orders went down to the guns by cascade, obviously units on the upwards path were a bit ahead of the game and likely to report ‘ready’ first and hence get the ranging job.

 

There is some information

In the worst case it would go up each step of the chain...

Hmm what would best case have likely been?

... Ie to bty CP, Regt CP, Div HQRA, Corps HQRA. HQ AGRA would pick it up from the divisional or corps arty nets.

Would HQ AGRA commonly have been monitoring the divisional of corps arty nets, or depend on it being forwarded?

 

Best case would have been an authorised observer on a corps arty net. If by best you mean biggest. Bigger would always take longer.

AGRAs were normally under corps command so would have been on the corps arty net. However, given the various net diagrams shown/referenced above then putting regts onto higher nets seems to have been fairly usual. The issue is at what point the net gets too big. Remember for arty fire orders the senior station repeated everything back to the sender given them a chance to correct it, and all the others acknowledged it.

I don't think monitoring comes into it, monitoring implies listening only. To receive fire orders each station had to acknowledge them, so authenticated members only, like all the best clubs.

After digging, edited to add this page may help a bit:

BRITISH ARTILLERY - PIECES

 

Nice 2 CdnAGRA net for "Veritable" Feb 45

 

3, 4 and 7 Medium were the Cdn regts, 3 being equipped with 4.5 in, which probably explains why they didn't deploy an AGRA representative (4.5 being mostly used for CB fire).

Self-evidently the diagram is only showing AGRA forward links. Interesting that 1 Hy Regt has an LO with 5 AGRA, could have provided an means for 5 AGRA to obtain additional fire from 2 Cdn AGRA and possibly vice versa (5 AGRA may have had a similar LO wth 2 Cdn AGRA) without going through HQRA Cdn Corps.

 

...yet more questions.

In the '2 CDN AGRA CMD NET' diagram the numbers in the upper right corner of the boxes represent what?

The radio link shown would only link the CP of each regiment, or would the battery CP & FOO have radios on this frequency as well?

Was this the only comm link between the Rep, OP, & LO locations shown in the diagram?

Thanks for any answers. As they say, the devil is in the details & I do not want to walk away with to many assumptions.

 

Still trying to get my head around how a Victor, William, or Yoke target order would be transmitted from the authorized OP/or initiator to the sundry batteries.

In the worst case it would go up each step of the chain particularly if it was a request from an unauthorised observer. Ie to bty CP, Regt CP, Div HQRA, Corps HQRA. HQ AGRA would pick it up from the divisional or corps arty nets.

So, from the last sentence HQ ARGA was also on the div or corps artillery nets?

 

9AGRA Line Diagram, "Veritable" Feb 45, showing forward & rear Echelons
for your delectation
Rob

 

That will take a moment to sort out. If it does not answer my previous questions it will certainly bring more.

Anymore like it in your pocket?

 

If AGRAS were under corps command, the normal situation, then I'd expect them to be on the corps arty net.

As to the numbers is small boxes, I think they may be suffixes to wireless code signs. Wireless code signs were unique three letter identifiers issued down to battery level, in use they were normally abbreviated to the first letter only (ie ABC would be abbreviated to Able), but numeric suffixes were used, I'd guess that LOs, Reps etc would retain there regt's wireless code sign, hence if 4 Med Regt was DEF then their rep with the inf bde would use Dog one three.

See Example 3 at FIRE DISCIPLINE for a Rep on a Div arty net

 

Anymore like it in your pocket?

4AGRA, 30Corps RA "Veritable" Phone.

 

If AGRAS were under corps command, the normal situation, then I'd expect them to be on the corps arty net.


Ok, in the 30 Corps RA diagram I see the telephone link to the 30 Corps Main & Rear from 5th & 3rd AGRA. 4th & 9th AGRA only have direct links to the 30 Corps Main... For whatever reason 3rd, 4th, & 9th AGRA have direct lines to each other, but none to 5th AGRA. What sort of message traffic would 3, 4 & 9 have with each other?

A more important question to me; would the several AGRA automatically hear the traffic into 30 Corps RA from the RA Regiments, or would 30 Corps have to repeat anything they needed to know? This would apply to both radio & telephone links.

 

The telephone network would not generally have been used for fire orders. I'd guess that line traffic between AGRAs would be target lists and other technical information including reporting locations. Line communcations basically removed the need to cipher information.

I wouldn't expect any regts on a corps arty net, unless they were under direct corps arty command. Regts would be on divisional or AGRA nets, with their btys on regt nets.

Example 3 at FIRE DISCIPLINE for a Rep on a Div arty net gives the model, there you see the regt CP repeating fire orders from div net on the regt net, and repeating reports from regt net onto div net. The emphasis was always on the importance of good comms discipline and procedures, which was always recognised as critical for success.

 

That fairly well sorts it out for me. A lot of lesser questions remain, which I'll sort out later. One for the moment would be how many radio frequencies/nets would a Corps RA HQ & a AGRA use? & what would each be named?