Hi, Can anyone please identify this vehicle alongside which my father is standing. It was taken at TA camp for 58th (Sussex) Field Regt RA (TA) at Moulscombe in the summer of either 1937 or 1939 Thanks, John
Thanks Mike - Researching my father's WW2 service - shortly after this he moved together with the regt as part of the BEF and eventually was evacuated from Dunkirk. The 58ths War Diary is interesting to read. Thanks again. John
Seems to be standing in front of a substantial small arms gallery range (Target numbers on the stop butt bank). Most TA were driving about in 1913 Commer trucks or similar towing 18pounder guns with wooden wheels. These were mostly replaced after embodiment in 1939 so this is either a show day in 1937 or they are having new issue in 1939. Again unusual as I think the Morris Quad with the 18 pounder on pneumatic tyres was standard issue in Field Regiments before going to France with the BEF. TA were also issued with Battle Dress circa October 1939. Try Derek Barton or go to : Home - The Royal Artillery 1939-45
Thanks Uncle, Lucky them to have updated vehicles then. Also I notice in my original post I say 1937 or 1939, it should have been 1937 or 1938. I have a couple of other photos, different vehicles, with same background range that are dated 37 and 38. John
And more. Looking further in my fathers old photos, I found one more of this vehicle, and on this one my father has commented on the back "A. Hendy. Moulscombe 1937" (I guess A. Hendy is one of the troop, a bit formal I know) so 1937 it is for this additional photo. . Also, the vehicle number is clear, it is H 3710945, the 37 I have previously been informed on WW2 Talk would indicate the year of delivery, again confirming that these are very new vehicles for the Regt. However, a closer look at the first photo I posted, and although the number is a bit blurred, it does not begin with 37, but more likely 38. As Moulscome was the location of the summer camp in both 37 and 38, then it is possible the photos are from the 37 and 38 camps. John, also
I doubt if the Morris CDSW actually belonged to the 58th Regiment. It was usual for some modern equipment to be available at training camps for familiarisation or simply to show them off. The 58th Regiment would not take Morris CDSW to France. First to go to France were the field regiments of 1, 2, 3 and 4 Divisions, all regular army and equipped with Morris CDSW and 25 pdr guns. This would take some 300 tractors plus reserves, which was about the total of Morris CDSW available. 58 Regiment went to France in April 1940. But my research was done many years ago. Perhaps others have more up to date information. Mike.
Hi Mike, Yes, you are correct, the 58th left Southampton on 5th Apr 40. I have a copy of their War Diary, which is very informative, and relates to the delivery of various vehicles and guns during Nov and Dec 39. Such as and I quote from the War Diary, "On 3/4 Nov 30 ammunition trailers and 6x3 ton lorries arrived." and "On 15 Dec 23x15 cwt trucks arrived." John
I too thought it was 38 in the first photo, it seems to me to be 38247…? Very interesting to see and read, John, thanks for sharing. It’s a similar query to one I had earlier this year and one which I hope you may also find very informative: Royal Artillery photo date/place help
Both H38247* and H3710954 were delivered under contract V3081 for 'Tractor 6x4, Field Artillery, winch type...1937 serials ended at 3711352 which suggests that 3710954 would have been quite late in the year. 1938 began at 381000 making this one quite an early 1938 delivery...These numbers though were issued in blocks prior to production based upon intended delivery dates so they do seem to become blurred a little. There were less than 1900 'B' vehicles including motorcycles taken on strength between these two though.
Thanks Wobbler, Just read your thread, so similar to my query and interesting. The point made about puttees and drivers. As you can see in my photo, my father is in puttees in 1938 and he was a driver, then driver i/c and finally driver/mechanic. Interestingly, his records show he took the passed his driver/mechanic trade test in France while in their deployment area at Vieux Berquin on the 8th of May 1940, just 2 days before the Regt packed up and crossed the border into Belgium when Germany invaded on the 10th of May. John
I am frankly, surprised that such a beast as the six wheeler was used for towing 18 pounders. They seem to have disappeared after the Dunkirk Evacuation. The Morris Quad seems to have been standard for field guns and anti tank throughout the War until at least the 1950's. Perhaps some one could enlighten me on this. It was not until 1944 that I came across 6 wheelers in my research, these being American GM trucks driven by American GI's in the Monte Grande Sector supporting the British 1st Infantry Division Artillery, due to bad road and weather conditions. I have read a report by the OC 67th Field Regt when asked for suggestions to improve the Artillery post war. He suggested that the GM 6 wheeler or similar, be available on issue to them as the Divisional 3 tonners were actually banned from the area, being only two wheel drive and likely to block the roads in the mud and snow. The Regiment were at times, driving non stop from San Clemente Monte Grande (near Bologna) to the main Ammo dump east of Florence in their Quads with crews taking turns to drive and rest. Had they come under sustained heavy attack they would have had trouble withdrawing and running out of Ammo been lost. Soon after the Division was withdrawn to Palestine. "Problem Solved" one might think.
The 6X4 format was the standard War Department format in the late 1930's and served with the BEF. The Morris 6X4 field artillery tractor did literally disappear, left behind in France. 4 X 4 tractors were just entering production. Mike
44th Division seem to have served in France with both Guy and Morris Quads. I have no images showing the '4' arm of service serial used by 58th Field Regt...but this Guy was with 65th Fd. Regt. There is no serial on this Morris-Commercial but it bears the oval of 44th Divison....one of the three Field regiments but no way of telling which. There were no WD serials beginning '40'..as if to show that the year-related system no longer applied, they jumped in late 1939 to seven digit serials commencing '41'
The RA experimented with a large number of different tractors in the interwar years. There were experiments with wheeled vehicles, half-tracks (IIRC), and tracked towers. Even though they eventually settled on a policy of wheeled towing vehicles they had stocks of for instance Light Dragon and Medium Dragon tracked towers and put them to use. I'm not sure about which Dragons were used where, but some were used in both France and North Africa. THE BRITISH ARMY IN FRANCE AND BELGIUM 1940 OFFICIAL PHOTOGRAPHS TAKEN IN THE WESTERN DESERT
