RA TAC markings assistance

Discussion in 'Royal Artillery' started by sri_130, Aug 17, 2018.

  1. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    RA Batteries were usually numbered but this 'Y' battery business reminded me that I came across a ZZ Battery in one Anti-Tank Reg't in Italy, so I don't think one can discount anything if the records seem to indicate here that the 21st had lettered batteries, especially if it was formed from a Guards infantry unit.

    (I believe they may have been specially formed and trained to use the Deacon armoured portees used late in the North African campaign.)
     
  2. sri_130

    sri_130 Active Member

    Thanks Gary, I've been using that site, it needs to be saved somehow before that archive goes!

    Interesting about your comment: "but Atk gun Tps weren't authorised motorcycles". Do you know where this was documented? If so, that could discredit the idea of the bike being anti-tank, 3rd battery, Y battery for the 21st anti-tank, H troop.

    Your LAA information lead me to the 94 Light AA Regiment RA(TA). If there was a third battery and H troop with them.
    The only bit of information on them is a war diary: 94 LAA Regiment
    It mentions a H Troop.
    It mentions on the first entry that "6 cas in B Tp (Y). i (X) in G Tp." Which I think stands for 6 casualties in B Troop. I'm not sure what the Y means!
    They look to have had 3 batteries (that I can note)
    323 Bty
    324 Bty
    325 Bty

    Not much more than that, I can find.
    Although there is some form of monument to them in Doncaster, which is where I work! So I'm off to see that tomorrow! Haha.
     
  3. op-ack

    op-ack Senior Member

    From mid-1940ish LAA Regiments consisted of three Batteries each of 18 guns in three troops, so H Troop in an LAA battery is perfectly feasible. I don't think the Y identifies a battery as LAA batteries were numbered.
     
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  4. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    Right, let's sort out some stuff then, because I definitely need to look at the links Chris has posted.

    21 Atk Regiment doesn't conform to numbered Btys and lettered Tps. It is nicely detailed on the Introduction linked to above and in keeping with its proximity to the Guards has a unique take on subunit designations.

    2 Bty - J, K, L Tps
    Q Bty - A, B, C Tps
    Y Bty - D, E?, F Tps
    Z Bty - G, H, I Tps

    2 and Q Btys towed 17-prs and Y and Z Btys M10 SP equipment it appears.

    My comment re Atk Tps not being authorised motorcycles is based on the WEs. The M/Cs are always part of RHQ or Bty HQ, so if H on the machine you're working on marks its affiliation then in theory it shouldn't belong to a H Tp in an Atk Regt. Cannot say absolutely not, but it would be unusual.

    94 LAA Regt are noted as having A, B, D, E, G, H Tps in Sep44 onwards in the above link. LAA Regts in 21AG were reduced in strength around that time, deleting the third Tp in each Bty, which I think is why C, F, and I Tps are not mentioned.

    Cas does mean casualties, Y and X refer to vehicles though not personnel;

    Field Service Pocket Book 1-1 - Glossary of Military Terms - www.arcre.com

    Gary
     
  5. op-ack

    op-ack Senior Member

    Motorcycle tac signs carried the Battery tac colours(blue with the respective quadrant in red) and its tac sign such as MC1. Y is a subalterns vehicle and would not be carried on a motorcycle.

    Having said that tac signs within the Royal Artillery are a veritable minefield.
     
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  6. sri_130

    sri_130 Active Member

    Haha, as it is proving!

    With anything like this, I guess it would never be 100% unless there was testimony and pictures, so it'll have to be 'a best fit'.
    So far, the best fit is the field regiments - until I can see if there are any other markings. Would anyone agree?
    I'm not giving up though. I shall research it on the beaches...
     
  7. sri_130

    sri_130 Active Member

    So... the team I work in (only small!) decided to visit the Doncaster Museum in our dinner hour. As it is free entry, we've never been & why not. But also in order to find:
    324 Battery 94th Light Anti Aircraft Regt RA
    The 94th Light AA are hardly mentioned on the internet. Whilst they are probably nothing to do with the bike, they were in the Guards Armoured, so I feel duty bound.

    [​IMG]
    Chris (on the left) was in RA serving in the 80's.

    Needless to say, we couldn't locate it.
    The museum is home to the kings own Yorkshire light infantry museum also. The 94th LAA was made up from the 8th battalion.
    I asked the staff there, who said the plaque was in storage, but they would dig it out and give me a ring.

    I did find this nice Royal Enfield though.

    [​IMG]

    Hand change, 1949 2 stroke. Think it's a 125.
    Not war related!

    In terms of my bike, I've hit a bit of a dead end. It is hopefully going to be here soon, so I might be able to uncover something from the rear mudguard, to continue the search.
    Any other theories are welcome.
     
  8. sri_130

    sri_130 Active Member

    So the bike arrived with me today and I was immediately drawn to the 'Y' symbol on the front:

    [​IMG]

    The base colour appears to be a desert brown shade. I cannot find any other evidence of this colour on any other section of the bike at all.
    It then looks to have had a layer of dark blue and then red - to make the guards armoured shield - or part of it.

    The sandy brown colour and the letter Y is related to the 5th infantry division?
    The wikipedia states they were transferred to the western front in March 1945.
    Supported by the 6th Guards armoured brigade, they invaded Germany.

    So I am now more confused. Artillery markings and possible link to the 5th inf.
    Any thoughts?
     
  9. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    This Y symbol, can you tell what shape the background was? It doesn't appear to be a square. I mean, from your picture, it looks like a yellow Y on a black circle, maybe, in a red square? (Because that would not be 5th infantry division, as far as I know.)
     
  10. sri_130

    sri_130 Active Member

    I think the yellowy brown is a shield shape. I'm going to try removing some paint layers around the edges this weekend.

    It looks like that was the original layer (the yellowy brown) and then came a white Y. Then it looks like the dark blue/black layer and finally the red.

    So it could have been something first with a Y - then painted for guards armoured + artillery afterwards. (artillery marking for battery and the letter H is below this)

    [​IMG]

    I've bought some cotton wool buds and acetone, so going to carefully try and select a sample area and see if I can make any truth of what I think above!

    I was thinking the Y and the colour of 5th infantry from a google image search?
    badge, formation, 5th Infantry Division
     
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  11. 8RB

    8RB Well-Known Member

    Square but also...
    5th inf div badge.jpg
    Great find and very rare to find original markings on your bike!
     
  12. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    The fact that the shape isn't square bothers me - divisional insignia were mostly square - but now that I think about it, didn't the Polar Bears use an oval? I'll try to have a look through the Warpaint books to see if there was anything else that might have a 'Y'.
     
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  13. sri_130

    sri_130 Active Member

    Thanks dude! It might be a different shape when I get cracking with the acetone! :D
     
  14. sri_130

    sri_130 Active Member

    Think the black was post '45?
     
  15. 8RB

    8RB Well-Known Member

    Must say I don't know. Could be worthwhile however to search the internet to see if you can find (wartime) photos of 5th Division vehicles with markings.
     
  16. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    I tried searching the IWM website for 5th Div vehicles but... I have to admit I find the search engine there pretty incomprehensible.
     
  17. sri_130

    sri_130 Active Member

    I've struggled to find any photos of motorcycles with 'battery' markings similar to mine. However, one that is similar:

    [​IMG]

    I wish mine had the AoS sign, it would really narrow it down!

    Anyway from the picture (without looking at the IWM if it is hosted there) this one was a couple of contracts earlier than mine. Likely built at the end of 1942 or early 1943.
    If I've got the rest of it right....

    The bull on the Jeep is the 11th armoured division, the 73 AoS sign denotes 58th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment (TA).
    The mud guard TAC-sign shows MotorCycle No.5 of the 2nd Battery (173).
    From the Trux info: By 1943 and before Sept 1944 each troop had 5 motorcycles: "Motorcycle 5
    clerk (troop commanders assistant)"

    Not sure what the figure of eight marking is near the AOS and the name Bernetta - possibly a nickname for the bike?
     
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  18. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    During their time with the BEF, 5 Div's 'Y' was applied directly to service colour and not very visible. This practice continued when they came back to the UK.

    There is an IWM photo showing an M20 in Italy bearing a 'Y' that appears to be painted directly onto the mudguard colour - but the Ford CMP behind looks to have the sign on a black circle. We probably shouldn't place too much significance on the colour / shape of the sign on a vehicle in an organisation as large as a division and being subject to replacements etc.

    C4636149.jpg

    C4636149 b.jpg
     
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  19. sri_130

    sri_130 Active Member

    Good fine Rich, was looking at that, the other day! I'm still reading into 5th Div history.

    Also, I read from the Trux info that Anti-tank towed regiments were converted to infantry within the final stages of the advance on Germany... so that's something else for me to research!
     
  20. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    From the war diary of 21 Anti-Tank Regt RA for Sep 44, I can confirm Gary's description on the regiment as comprising:

    2 (Minden) Bty - J, K, L Tps
    Q (Sanna's Post) Bty - A, B, C Tps
    Y Bty - D, E?, F Tps
    Z Bty - G, H, I Tps

    But it does look like in the Q Bty narrative there are multiple references to 'tanks' and for example mention of 'X3 SP' so I don't necessarily agree with his split of equipment.

    I think that 2 and 'Z' Bty were the towed units, whilst Q and Y had the SPs. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a narrative for Y Bty in the Regimental war diary. Not for Sept anyway.

    It may also be noteworthy that for Op GARDEN, 2nd (Minden) and Q Batteries were allotted to 5 Bde and the rest of 21 Anti-Tank to 32 Bde. Perhaps a reflection of an SP and towed split that developed long before the "mixed battle group" policy became active.

    Regards
    Tom
     
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