RA and Black Cats in Burma

Discussion in 'Royal Artillery' started by SteveStone, Feb 25, 2013.

  1. SteveStone

    SteveStone Junior Member

    Hi everyone,

    I hope you are all doing well. I am researching my father’s history during WW2 and would very much appreciate anything that can the confirm the info I have.

    How can I find my father's regiment? He served with the Black Cats in Burma and was a Bombardier on an A.A. gun crew. There is a small chance that it may be a Cornish regiment. I have posted more details on the British Indian Army/17th Infantry Black Cats thread.

    Is there a more specific thread for this subject in the RA forum?

    Best regards,
    Steve Luxton
     
  2. hutchie

    hutchie Dont tell him Pike!!

    hi steve one thing i would suggest is that you post his full name and also any details you know, the guys on here are pritty good, especially kenny (hebridean chindit), Steve (bamboo43) & burnbank chindit. also do you have any photos that you can post of him in uniform etc? you would be amazed what people can pinpoint with the smallest detail.

    give it time :) & good luck
    hutchie
     
  3. SteveStone

    SteveStone Junior Member

    Hi Hutchie,

    Which is the best thread to post on? My sisters have any photos and records but I only started searching today.

    Here is what I have and would like as confirmed or not.

    Ernest Walter Luxton, Dob 4 Nov 1919.
    14th Army, Black Cats (17th Infantry Division).
    As a carpenter he had a reserved occupation and built MTB's on the Isle of Wight at the start of the war. He served with the Royal Artillery and the Black Cats in Burma. Until he punched a bullying Sergeant he was a Bombardier. I have been told that he was an Army boxing champion during that time, and guess he would have boxed at bantam or flyweight.

    I could post some links to Pathe newsreels. There is one of the troopship bringing them home, and another where he is boat-building after the war which includes one of Gurkha's who came back to England.

    Thanks for your help,
    Steve
     
  4. hutchie

    hutchie Dont tell him Pike!!

    You have posted in the proper section just give it time
     
  5. SteveStone

    SteveStone Junior Member

    OK. Thanks for your help.

    Steve
     
  6. DaveB

    DaveB Very Senior Member

    I would presume that he was part of the 82nd Light AA Regiment

    Divisional units of 17th Indian Infantry Division (as of Oct 1944) -

    129 Field Regiment RA
    21 Mountain Regiment IA
    29 Mountain Regiment IA
    82 Light Anti-aircraft / Anti-tank Regiment RA
    60 Field Company IE
    70 Field Company IE
    Tehri Garhwal Field Company
    414 Field Park Company IE


    Edit - or the 28 Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment Royal Artillery which joined the Division early 1945 ( OOB )
     
  7. mapshooter

    mapshooter Senior Member

    Ah, a good question.

    Originally 17 Div did not have a Lt AA regt, they did have 82 Anti Tank Regt. However, in 1942-43 there was reorganisation, pairs of Lt AA and Anti tank regts each exchanged a couple of batteries to form composite Lt AA/ATk Regts.

    In 17 Div the pair was 82 Atk and 24 LAA, these created 82 LAA/ATk in 17 Div and 24 LAA/ATk in 7 Div.

    However, in about Sep 44 the regts changed again, this time the LAA/ATk regts converted to 'straight' ATk regts with three btys (actually I think they were all dual-equipped with 6-pdr atk guns and 3-inch mortars - there was a shortage of Japanese aircraft and not too may tanks either).

    24 LAA/Atk had 86 and 491 LAA btys, 82 LAA/Atk had 87 & 88 LAA btys.

    One LAA bty of 24 Regt may have converted to atk bty, but didn't retain its number, in 82 regt it seems that 87 LAA bty became 87 anti-tank bty. Presumably the other LAA btys disbanded and the solders posted to other units (not necessarily artillery).
     
  8. SteveStone

    SteveStone Junior Member

    Hi, thank you both for the fast response.

    @DaveB. Yes, I think so too.

    @mapshooter. Thanks for the detailed info and storyline. I've pasted the info I have below.

    Please excuse civvy ignorance... what comprises a battery and how is it organised? Would an individual soldier typically remain with the same gun crew? The photos I have seen show him next to a 3.7 AA gun.

    Some childhood memories were jogged this morning and I remember my dad describing badges as: 1. The Black Cat badge. 2. A square, diagonally divided into two triangles, blue and red. He often wore a tie with blue and red diagonal stripes or lightning flashes, and used an RA badge for a tie pin. 3. Cross keys.

    Best regards,
    Steve

    To add to your info:
    From the Burma Star Association site...
    A Short History of the Black Cats
    17 Mountain Division was originally raised as 17 Indian Division at Ahmednagar on 01 July 1941 under the command of Maj Gen HW Lewis, CE, CIE, DSO. Though the formation was earmarked for operation in North Africa after raising, it was rushed to Burma as part of the Burma Corps due to the adverse situation prevailing in SE Asia.

    In March 1942, Maj Gen DT ‘Punch’ Cowan, CD, CEE, DSO, MC assumed command of the formation. The division as part of 4 Corps and under 14 Army, was launched into Burma in December 1944. Starting with the battle of Meiktila, it continued its advance into Burma till Rangoon fell to the Allied Forces in June 1945. The formation won many laurels including 7 VCs, and 161 MCs, besides other gallantry awards.

    On conclusion of World War II, the Division was disembodied in 1946. It was re-raised as 17 Infantry Division at Ambala in 15 November 1960 under Maj Gen KS Katoch, MC. During 1961, the Division was assigned the task of liberating Goa under Maj Gen Candeth. Subsequently on 15 Nov 1963, the Formation moved to Sikkim since then it has been successfully guarding the 245 Km long Sikkim border with Tibet.

    From the Royal Artillery site...
    Order of Battle 1941-1942
    DIVISIONAL COMMANDERS
    1st July 1941 - Maj/Gen H.V. Lewis (C.B. C.I.E. D.S.O.)
    1941 - Maj/Gen J.G. Smyth (V.C. M.C.)
    March, 1942 - Maj/Gen D. (Punch) Cowan (C.B. C.B.E. D.S.O. M.C.)

    Divisional Artillery
    129th Fld Regt (Royal Artillery)
    82nd A/Tank Regt (Royal Artillery)
    1st Indian Fld Regt (Indian Artillery)
    2nd Indian A/Tank Regt (Indian Artillery)
    21st.28th.29th. Indian Mountain Regt (Indian Artillery)
    1st Indian Light A.A. Regt (Indian Artillery)
    16th Indian Infantry Brigade
    1st Btn 9th Jat Regt (Royal)
    4th Btn Frontier Force Rifles
    2nd Btn Duke of Wellington's Regt
    1st Btn 7th Gurkha Rifles
    2nd. 4th. 5th. 7th. 8th. Btn The Burma Rifles, COMMANDED by Brig. J.K. Jones
    46th Indian Infantry Brigade
    1st Btn Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry
    5th Btn 17th Dogra Regt
    3rd Btn 7th Gurkha Rifles
    9th(?) Baluch Regiment, COMMANDED by Brig. Ekin up to the Sittang Bridge catastrophe of 1942 after which the 46th ceased to exist
    48th Gurkha Brigade
    1st Btn 3rd Q.A.O. Gurkha Rifles
    1st Btn 4th P.W.O. Gurkha Rifles
    2nd Btn 5th Royal Gurkha Rifles (F.F.), COMMANDED by Brig. R.T. Cameron for most of the 1st campaign and well into 1942. It is believed that he was then relieved by Brig. N. Hugh-Jones
    44th Indian Infantry Brigade
    6th Btn 1st Punjab Regt
    7th Btn 8th Punjab Regt
    6th Btn 14th Punjab Regt, COMMANDED by Brig. G. Ballantine
    7th Armoured Brigade
    7th Queens Hussars
    2nd Royal Tank Regt

    Order of Battle 1943-1945
    Divisional Artillery
    129th Fld Regt (Royal Artillery)
    82nd A/Tank Regt (Royal Artillery)
    1st Indian Fld Regt (Indian Artillery)
    2nd Indian A/Tank Regt (Indian Artillery)
    21st. 28th. 29th. Indian Mountain Regt (Indian Artillery)
    1st Indian Light AA Regt (Indian Artillery)
    48th Indian Infantry Brigade
    1st Btn West Yorkshire Regt
    1st Btn 12th Frontier Force Rifles
    1st Btn 3rd Q.A.O. Gurka Rifles
    1st Btn 4th P.W.O. Gurkha Rifles
    2nd Btn 5th (Royal) Gurkha Rifles
    1st Btn 7th Gurkha Rifles
    COMMANDED by Brig. M. Hadley (D.S.O.)
     
  9. SteveStone

    SteveStone Junior Member

    Sorry, I gave the wrong source for the orders of battle, that info came from the Burma Star Association's Royal Artillery site. As does this history of the 82nd.

    Originally formed of 205th, 228th, 276th and 284th Anti-Tank Batteries and later of 87th, 228th and 276th Anti-Tank Batteries. Commanded by Lcol G P Chapman and LCol J R S Thompson. In early January 1942 the regiment was part of the 18th Division and with that Division was diverted (personnel only no guns) to Singapore. Its personnel in Singapore must have been allocated as reinforcements to other units since I can't find the regiment listed in any of the Orders of Battle for Singapore.

    Arrived in Bombay on 9 Jan 42 (evidently this was the guns and the personnel with the guns) Moved to Jhansi with 48 2-pdrs. On 30 Mar 42 it was located at Ranchi. Moved to Imphal in June and placed under 17th Indian Divison.

    Converted to LAA/Anti-Tank Regiment on 26 Nov 42. Comprised of 87th and 88th LAA Batteries from 24th LAA Regiment and 205th and 284th Anti-Tank Batteries.

    At Shillong on 25 May 43
    In action at Imphal and Tiddim on 13 Nov 43
    Reorganized as an Anti-Tank Regiment at Ranchi on 26 Sep 44
    At Imphal on 16 Jan 45
    On 21 Feb 45 it crossed the Irrawaddy and moved to Meikula
    1 Apr 45 reorganized with three troops of 30inch mortars (36 6-pdr mortars and 36 3-inch mortars) and moved to Pyawbwe and then Pegu
    Disbanded on 28 June 45.

    Information gleaned from History of the Royal Artillery; The Far East Theatre 1941-46
     
  10. wtid45

    wtid45 Very Senior Member

  11. SteveStone

    SteveStone Junior Member

    Hi Jason, I checked in a few places and got nowhere. I think I'll have to wait until I have some photo's and more detailed info from family.

    My dad's family came from Cornwall and Devon which, as you probably know, were once called West Wales. I did quite a lot of rock climbing in North Wales when a teenager. My first girlfriend was from Bargoed. My eldest sister has lived in and around Cardiff for more than 50 years. After my dad died, she planted a Pride of India tree in (Roath Park?) Cardiff.

    Is there a Timothy Luxton on the Burma Railroad RoH?

    A comedy question... do you think a British Army would have existed at all if the Welsh hadn't invented the longbow?
     
  12. wtid45

    wtid45 Very Senior Member

    Hi Jason, I checked in a few places and got nowhere. I think I'll have to wait until I have some photo's and more detailed info from family.

    My dad's family came from Cornwall and Devon which, as you probably know, were once called West Wales. I did quite a lot of rock climbing in North Wales when a teenager. My first girlfriend was from Bargoed. My eldest sister has lived in and around Cardiff for more than 50 years. After my dad died, she planted a Pride of India tree in (Roath Park?) Cardiff.

    Is there a Timothy Luxton on the Burma Railroad RoH?

    A comedy question... do you think a British Army would have existed at all if the Welsh hadn't invented the longbow?
    Best bet would be to apply for his service records if family info can not paint a clearer picture, and ref Timothy Luxton on Burma railway ROH...... can only find only James Luxton who was Australian, and on CWGC a Thomas Luxton who is named on the Rangoon memorial. And the English could never get by without the help of the Welsh;)
     
  13. sol

    sol Very Senior Member

    Hi Steve and welcome to the forum. Probably the best thing would be applying for his service record. Then you will be sure in which unit your father served.

    The photos I have seen show him next to a 3.7 AA gun.


    3.7 inch AA gun wasn't used in divisional AA regiment which were usually equipped with Bofors. Maybe his unit was for some time attached to 17th Indian Division or maybe he served in division while operating different type of gun. Without his service record or more info you couldn't be absolutely sure.

    Some childhood memories were jogged this morning and I remember my dad describing badges as: 1. The Black Cat badge. 2. A square, diagonally divided into two triangles, blue and red. He often wore a tie with blue and red diagonal stripes or lightning flashes, and used an RA badge for a tie pin. 3. Cross keys.

    Crossed keys were (and still are) a sign of 2nd British Infantry Division.
     
  14. mapshooter

    mapshooter Senior Member

    Anti-tank btys were usually 12 guns of whatever type. I say usually because there was a bit of variation in N Africa. The battery was organised in troops of 4 guns, usually the troops would operate relatively independently of each other.

    LAA btys were similarly organised but HAA had only two troops of four guns. Unlike field artillery batteries, in anti-tank btys most of the men were in the gun detachments. I'd expect them to stay in the same detachment unless they were promoted or men had been lost and it was necessary to re-balnce detachments.

    Unlike Western theatres where divisions had an LAA regt as well as a ATk regt, in Burma they did not.

    2 Divs atk regt was 100, until 1942 a MG battalion (8 Gordons). The exchanged btys with 122 LAA regt of 36 Div (the only other British div in Burma - although for some time it was misleadingly designated an Indian div despite having no Indian cbt troops).

    There's a bit of detail about RA ATk at ANTI-TANK note that in Burma only 6-pr were used. Also unlike field artillery, the detachment commanders were bombadiers, each section of 2 guns being commanded by a serjeant.
     
  15. SteveStone

    SteveStone Junior Member

    Hi Sol, thanks for your welcome.

    I can be fairly sure that someone in the family already has his service records and I've sent some emails asking for those and photo's. Anyway, I enjoy doing the research and don't want to make it too easy...

    The 3.7 inch AA gun is the one I remember from a photo. This is from a SEAC report on the Burma Star Associations site. Clearing the Ukhrul area, mid-July 1944.
    "The artillery units which took part were ordinary Indian Mountain regiments. Like the tanks the mountain guns proved a very great success. Their mule train of 460 animals carried the 3.7-in, guns and ammunition over six mountain ranges averagely 7,000 feet high, and forded at least three sizeable rivers. The Japs were astonished to receive 20-pounder shells from that height."

    The 17th Indian Division connection fits perfectly - see the info below.

    How might the Cross Keys fit into the narrative? Or is it a red herring?

    Hi Mapshooter, thanks for the info. There was quite a bit of variation in India too. This is compiled from the Burma Star Assoc. site.

    Jan 1942 - 82nd Division arrive at Bombay.
    June 1942 - At Imphal and placed under 17th Indian Division.
    26 Nov 1942 - Converted to LAA/AT Regiment comprised of 87th and 88th LAA batteries from 24th LAA Regiment and 205th and 284th AT batteries (from 24ATk Regiment?)
    26 Sep 1944 - Reorganised as AT Regiment at Ranchi.
    1 Apr 1945 - Reorganised with 3 troops of mortars (36 6-pdr and 36 3in) and moved to Pyawbwe and then Pegu.

    Source: The Burma Star Association site / History of the Royal Artillery; The Far East Theatre 1941-46

    I also found this - 14th Army - ORDER OF BATTLE - September 1944
    Lieut. General Sir William Slim. Brigadier General Staff: Brigadier S. F. Irwin, Brigadier J. S. Lethbridge (from September 1944)

    Army Artillery: Brigadier G. de V. Welchman
    18th (self-propelled) Field Regiment, RA
    134th Medium Regiment, RA
    52nd Heavy Anti-Aircraft Regiment, RA
    69th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment, RA
    2nd Indian Field Regiment, IA
    2nd Indian Light Anti-aircraft Regiment, IA
    5th Mahratta anti-tank regiment
    656th Air Op Squadron, RAF
     
  16. mapshooter

    mapshooter Senior Member

    That was the artillery under Army command, there were lots of regiments under corps and divisional command.

    It may just be juxtaposition, but 3.7 HAA used by HAA regts (usually under corps, army or artillery brigade command) had nothing to do with the 3.7 How used by Indian Mountain regts and various British batteries (both independent and in field regts), totally different guns totally different ammo, totally different role and tactics, although 3.7 HAA was sometimes used in the ground role notably at Admin Box IIRC.

    However, in about April 1945, 17 Div was allotted 250 LAA Bty and 159 HAA Bty by 4 Corps from their 28 LAA and 52 HAA Regts.
     
  17. SteveStone

    SteveStone Junior Member

    Thanks for that, Mapshooter. The piece I read didn't mention the Indian Mountain 3.7's as Howitzers.

    On a different tack, is there a list of British Army All-India Boxing champions during WW2? I can't find it on the British Army Boxing site.
     
  18. mapshooter

    mapshooter Senior Member

    Thanks for that, Mapshooter. The piece I read didn't mention the Indian Mountain 3.7's as Howitzers.

    On a different tack, is there a list of British Army All-India Boxing champions during WW2? I can't find it on the British Army Boxing site.

    No doubt the Burma Star author(s) assumed 'as any fule no Indian mountain regts had 3.7-inch howitzers'. 3.7 Hows came in a bewildering array of versions made in UK, India and S Africa. The basic gun entered service in 1917 and post WW1 after requipment was complete was the only gun ever used by the Indian (or British for that matter) mountain btys until 1943 when some UK mtn btys in Italy changed to the US 75mm mtn How.

    The Indian mtn btys almost all relied on animal transport, ie Mules, normally carried in pieces, the gun being designed to breakdown into loads that could be manhandled and loaded on and off the mules. Pack artillery was so named because it was designed to be carried by pack animals if required

    3.7 HAA was a fricking great gun weighing about 10 tons on its mobile mounting needing a Matador tractor to pull it. A pack 3.7 HAA designed for elephant transport is a interesting notion but never happened and despite Hannibal nelly isn't particularly well suited to mountains. Also invites the question as to how to move the crane that would be needed to disassemble and reassemble the gun.
     
  19. SteveStone

    SteveStone Junior Member

    Thanks for the info. I really appreciate all the time and effort you are putting in.

    It appears that it was Maj Gen DT ‘Punch’ Cowan who traded trucks for mules. As you say, the 3.7 HAA was a fricking great gun. I can't imagine it as pack artillery, even with a squadron of Dumbo's.

    My sister says she will email photo's and info in a few days, so I am hoping there is a service number in there.

    Best regards, Steve
     
  20. mapshooter

    mapshooter Senior Member

    One of the problems the British Army faced in WW2 was lack of men expert in animal husbandry, that's why they had to recruit Basutos for Italy, they knew how to handle mules. India units had the skills, the most treasured possession of a mtn bty was the lead mule, they took years to train, but where she went the rest happily followed.
     

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