Pz IIIs found in Norway

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Kystfort - View topic - Panzervogner


Norway took over 61 pieces Panzer III and 10 Stuga from the Allies as they left the country in late 1945.

These were in varying quality and half was used for spare parts.

The cars were sabotaged by the Allies after the war.
Obviously, most races cannon blasted (someone who knows more?) And was on Trandum overhauled and given new guns

July 1948 has listed 25 Panzer III in the army.


In 1948 created special airport departments to defend the airfields at ev attack.

These departments should have a tank platoon included

Due to lack of equipment is Panzer III tanks used for this (now called Tank KW-III) also Stuga III carriages were put in (now called Storm Cannon KW-III)

Dragon Regiment 1 in the Sun, DR 2 on Eggemoen and DR 3 in Værnes and Bardufoss.


In 1951 these were replaced with American equipment


On Bardufoss dug they seem down carriages that bunker positions

The rest of the drivable cars were sold to Finland. The rest ended up as a measure of shooting ranges

 

I'll be happy to do any transalation, but please specify if there are special excerpts you want or the whole text translated, as that will be a bit of a job. Either today or in a week's time.

 

Za
Looking at the photos it reminds me of several training ranges on a clean up day when the hulks are sorted out and moved to new configurations.
Although some are now left as wildlife refuges and are marked as such.

 

Memory? What's that?

 

Za
Goes with drinking too much port and as one get older!
Let me think what was it I wanted to say............forgotten

 

Here follows part 1 of translated text.
Will do the rest if I find time tomorrow morning. If not, it will be a while.

First post

Armoured vehicles. Certainly presented in here earlier, but I’m taking the chance.
2 of 3 PzKpfw III N that have been dug out of the ground. Submerged in the 50s or 60s with the turrets over ground. Rests of concrete on them, so they may have been attached to some bunkers.

(2 pics, end of post.)

Second post

Yes, they were placed on the Fort Bjornaasen
(3 links to news articles in Norwegian, end of post)

Third post

Here is some information I posted on these vehicles on another forum.

Vehicle # 1 (the first to be retrieved)
Sd.Kfz.141 AusfH (7/2W)
Fgst.Nr.66158

Looked something like this while in Norwegian service:

(pic)

Number on body 66158 means that the vehicle was built as a model H early in 1941 by M.A.N. Nuernberg with a short 5 cm KwK 39 L/42. The tower on this one is however from a later N (or M) model and has a complete turret door, suggesting it’s a late model with a KwK L/24. The explanation is that vehicles brought in for repairs in 1942 had their original cannon substituted with this new short 7,5 cm cannon. This vehicle has obviously had a complete new tower too, suggesting this happened in 1943.
The vehicle is also equipped with extra 30 mms of armour in front, which was a common feature on F models.

The vehicle also has mounting brackets for “Schurzen” on tower as well as on body.
This means that the vehicle looked like this when in German service in Norway:

(pic)

The vehicle looked like this when it was new:
With a 5 cm KwK L/42 cannon

(pic)

Vehicle # 2:
Panzerkampfwagen III
(Sd.Kfz.141/1) Ausf L (9/Z7W)
Fgst.Nr. 74352

Looked something like this when in Norwegian service:

(pic)

Number on body establishes that vehicle was built as an L model. The L model had originally a 5 cm KwK 39 L/60 cannon. Even this vehicle has changed to a 7,5 cm cannon L/24. In addition the vehicle had had its tower changed to an older G to J version. The L model didn’t have an observation hatch on the side of the tower. The tower hatch is in two parts.

This vehicle too has brackets for Schurzen on the tower but on the photos from Tromsoe model club it’s hard to see any on the body.
But I assume this is what it looked like in service in Norway:

(pic)

This is how the vehicle looked like when new:
With a 5 cm KwK 39 L/60 cannon.

(pic)

Vehicle # 3

Panzerkampfwagen III
(Sd.Kfz. 141/1) Ausf M (10/ZW)
Fgst.Nr. 76279

Looked something like this in Norwegian service:

(pic)

Body number reveals that the vehicle was built as an M model in 1943. The model was originally equipped with a 5 cm KwK 39 L/60 cannon. This vehicle has also had this substituted with a 7,5 cm KwK L/24. The vehicle has also changed to an older G to J version of tower. The M model has no observation hatch on the side of the tower. The tower hatch is in two halves. The rearmost wheel is of an older E to G model which was normally utilised on vehicles with narrow belts.

Again this vehicle has brackets for mounting Schurzen on the tower but on photos from Tromsoe model club it’s hard to see any on the body.
But I assume it looked something like this when in German service in Norway:

(pic)

This is how the vehicle appeared when new:
With 5 cm KwK 39 L/69 cannon.

(pic)

Panzer III in German service in Norway
Panzer II arrived in Norway in 1942/1943 when 25th Panzer division was formed. The unit had originally many ex-French vehicles but was gradually equipped with Pz IIIs and some Pz IVs.

Some pics from 25th Pz.Div in Norway, probably from 1943. (The pics are from Tore Eggan’s brilliant site http://d2134644.u48.surftown.nu/coppermine/index.php)

(4 photos)

25. Armoured Division left Norway in the autumn of 1943. Parts of division stayed back to form Armoured Division Norway in November 1943. 24th Armoured Division left Pz III vehicles in Norway and had new Pz IV vehicles delivered at arrival on the European Continent.

In May 1944 the Norwegian Armoured Division was transferred to Denmark to fill inn for the losses 25th Armoured Division had suffered on the Eastern Front.

The parts of the unit staying in Norway formed Armoured sub-division Norway. In June 1944 it was renamed Armoured Brigade Norway.

A bit later in June ( 28th June 1944) the Stormbigrade Norway was ordered to form. It consisted of:
- Brigade staff
(follows 4 unit names I’m unable to translate into adequate English.)
All their equipment was still what was left by 25th armoured Division in 1943.

In July 1944 the unit is renamed Armoured Division Norway, to hide its actual size.

In August the unit is again renamed Armoured Brigade Norway. Both names were in use until the end of the war.

1st May 1944 the unit counts 6522 personnel.

In May 1945 the unit, with staff and 4 companies and an assault company, has 25 Pz III with 5 cm long cannon and 36 Pz III with 7,5 cm short cannon, in addition 10 StuG III.

(Photo)
Photo text: Pz III from Armoured Brigade Norway during giving up their equipmemt to the Allies.

A separate unit equipped with Pz III in Norway was Pz.Abt 211. This was stationed in Northern Norway under command of Army Unit Narvik. This unit probably came from Finland during the withdrawal.

The unit had 3 Pz III 7,5 cm short.

(Photo, taken from Wehrmacht-Awards.com which reportedly shows a Pz III from this unit.

In service for Norway

Norway took over 61 Pz IIIs and 10 Stugs from the Allies when these left the country late in 1945.
The quality varied and roughly half of the vehicles were used for spare parts.
The vehicles had been sabotaged by the Allies after the war. The barrels had been destroyed by explosion (anybody knows more about this ?) and at Trandum the vehicles were overhauled and fitted with new cannons.
For July 1948 25 Pz III were registered to the Army.

In 1948 special airfield units were formed, to protect the airfields when attacked.
These units were assigned a tank troop.
Due to lack of adequate equipment the Pz IIIs were used for this (now called Tank KW-III). StuG III tanks were also utilized (now called Assault Cannon KW-III.)
These regiments were established at Sola, Eggemoen, Vaernes and Bardufoss.

In 1951 the German tanks were substituted with American equipment. .

At Bardufoss the tanks were obviously dug down as bunker posts.
The rest of the serviceable vehicles were sold to Finland. The unserviceable ones were used as range targets.

(Photo) Photo text: This is the unit at Bardufoss – the same vehicles which have now been dug out, apart from the StuG.

(Photo)
Photo text: nother pic of a Pz III in Norwegian service.

The following pics show vehicles on their way to Finland:
(2 photos)

 

Holy smokes! Thank you very much!!

 

My first contact with PzIIIs in Norway, a Bellona Military Vehicle Print dated 1970

 

Norway took over 61 Pz IIIs and 10 Stugs from the Allies when these left the country late in 1945.
The quality varied and roughly half of the vehicles were used for spare parts.
The vehicles had been sabotaged by the Allies after the war. The barrels had been destroyed by explosion (anybody knows more about this ?) and at Trandum the vehicles were overhauled and fitted with new cannons.
For July 1948 25 Pz III were registered to the Army.

In 1945 the British Government sent an SAS team to Norway ASAP after the Surrender...which promptly caused a diplomatic incident between two countries. They were sent to dynamite surrendered and stockpiled Geman equipment....which it turned out the Norwegians fully intended to use!

They had destroyed every surrendered P.IV in Norway, and begun to disable the IIIs....when the process was halted

I'd known about the concreted in IIIs for some time - but not about the IVs, until I came across a VERY interesting picture some years ago...



...Pady Blair Mayne and Roy Farran (of "Winged Dagger" and Crete fame!) at Oslo-Fornebu on the day of the British arrival!

 

Here follows part 2 of 2 of translation:

Some more information on 25th Arnoured Division

After the British Commando raids on Maaloey and Lofoten in December 1941 it was evident that major British operations in Norway were possible. To handle this threat some units were formed. A mobile armoured unit under direct command of AOK Norway was desirable.

On 24th January 1942 Armoured Unit 214 was formed at Trandum just north of Oslo. The unit was planned with equipment and key personnel from Pz.abt in Germany. The rest of the men were to be recruited from LXX Army Corps in Southern Norway.
Wehrkreis XII was responsible for the manning.

Panzer-Abteilung 214 should be set up like this, all accordin to various Kriegsstärkenachweisung:
Staff Pz.- Abt c
Lei.Pz-zug c
Nachr.-zug c
1-3 Pz.-Kp c
Pz.Jg.Kp (5 cm)
Kol einer Pz.Abt
Pz.. Werkstattzug (Eng: workshop ?)

Examples of Kriegsstärkenachweisung:s can be found here (look esp at 1171c)
http://chrito.users1.50megs.com/kstn/kstnpanzermain.com

The vehicles should be ex-French

On 5th February Panzerverband Norwegen, (ordered by O.K.H) was renamed Panzer Division Norwegen.
Scützenverbandes Oslo gets to keep their green Waffenfarbe.

On 14th Fen 1942 Panzer Divisio Norwegen is (ordered by O.K.H.) renamed Panzer Division.

Her follow some pictures of the unit’s ex-French vehicles in Norway (originally Pz.Abt 214’s vehicles.)
(Again photos from Tore Eggan’s brilliant site http://d2134644.u48.surftown.nu/coppermine/index.php)

(4 photos)
The number 311 would mean the commander’s vehicle in Troop 3 in Company 1.

Best regards,
Olve Dybvig

Post 4-5 thanking Olve for his post.
Post 6

>Citing the organization of Panzer-Abteilung 214<

3/1943 Panzer-Abteilung actually looked like this:

Staff
1-3 Pz.kp (F) => Hotchkiss and Somua
4 m.Kp => looks like Pz III or IVk
Pz.Jg.Kp 514 (motZ) => Armour penetrating cannons towed behind an ordinary vehicle
Le.Pz.Kolonne
Pz.Werkstettzug
Le.Kw.Koone (30 t) 1012

All in all not very impressive for an armoured battalion.

Post 7
Citing > Norway took over 61 Pz III and 10 Stug from the Allies when these left the country late in 1945<

How about the 4 Stuf III asf.G in Nordland which had belonged to 14 Feld division and the other German panzer scattered all around ?

Here is an overview over all panzer in Norway by April 1945, not including 8 Pz.Ib and 3 Hotchkiss bodies with PAK 40 with Pz.Abt 211 and some Renault FT 17.

(Scanned document in German)

Post 8

Are there any plans to restore these vehicles ?

TRANSLATOR APOLOGISES FOR UNABILITY TO TRANSLATE PROPERLY FROM GERMAN !

 

Additional info (from one of my mates): One of these vehicles is about to be sent to Germany for restoration.

 

Stormbird - they've been "about to" for over a year now IIRC

 

A very interesting thread to read.

The Panzers looked to be well looked after judging by the photographs but suppose that there really was not much need for them except as a deterrent for invasion.

Regards
Tom

 

The Panzers looked to be well looked after judging by the photographs but suppose that there really was not much need for them except as a deterrent for invasion


Didn't work then! Tho' I suppose it depends on who you intend to deter...

Petsamo–Kirkenes Offensive - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

What is your point with the P/K operation, Phylo?

 

What is your point with the P/K operation, Phylo?


...that it's suprising how little known the fact is that Norwegian territory was invaded and fought upon a SECOND time during WWII? It's so often a generalisation that Norway was a backwater apart from the operations against the Arctic convoys, the Tirpitz, the RAF vs. German coastal traffic off Norway etc. - when in fact this rather nasty little conflict was fought out in the Northmark. The "real" war came back to Norway with a vengence, the civilian Norwegian population of the Kirkenes area had to shelter underground in the iron ore diggings there for some time.

 

The Directives for Military Officers and Ministry Officials upon an Attack of Norway has only been close to implementation once in Norwegian history. On 3 June 1968 the Leningrad Military District in the former Soviet Union was placed on alert. Within a couple of days the mobilized forces in the Leningrad region reached 11,000 soldiers, 4,000 marines, 210 tanks, 500 troop transports, 265 self propelled cannons, 1,300 logistics transports, 50 helicopters and 20 transport aircraft (Antonov AN-12), all of which were staged in the Petchenga-Murmansk area near Norway.

On the evening of 7 June, the garrison (Garnisonen i Sør-Varanger or GSV) heard the noise of powerful engines coming from the manoeuvres along the entire Soviet front of the Norwegian-Soviet border. Actual observations were not possible over the border in the dark. On that same night the GSV commanding officer ordered all GSV reserve forces to report to their emergency muster locations. The Soviet demonstration of strength lasted until 10 June, when the Soviet forces backed down.
Par for the course As said above, those Panzers were stationed on airfields, just as their Finnish colleagues did with their remaining StuGs. By the way, those StuGs were entrenched along runway axis - nothing better than a 75mm HE on an Il-76 nose to ruin your day - and before being covered in dirt they received a coat of tar for moisture insulation. This was still apparent in one of those I saw in the Parola museum 20 years ago.

 

On 3 June 1968 ....On the evening of 7 June...


What was going on in the world in June 1968??? The only things of any military or geopolitical significance that I can see are the loss of the SSBN USS Scorpion off the Azores on 22nd May, and the assasination of Bobby Kennedy on the 5th of June...

 

The Prague Spring was ongoing, invasion by the Warsaw Pact was in August, Perhaps this was some sabre-rattling, but I'm speculating only.