Pz.I Attachments etc.

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by Owen, Jan 18, 2008.

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  1. Bodston

    Bodston Little Willy

    This is the picture I have been searching for, taken from Steve Zaloga's book 'Blitzkrieg, Armor Camouflage & Markings, 1939-1940'. It shows a Munitionsschlepper auf Fgst. PzKpfw I Ausf A of 4th Pz. Div. but with the earlier unmodified engine deck. I believe that this is the same version as the mystery vehicle. It would appear that the twin engine hatches did not fold flat as I assumed, but were held by the hinges at that distinctive angle shown in the earlier photographs. The large white painted patch on the engine deck is an air identification marking used in France during 1940. The picture is credited to the US National Archives, Washington D.C.
    [​IMG]
     
    Bodston, Jan 20, 2008
    #21
    Owen likes this.
  2. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Good find Bod.
    Adam did you see my post #6, look at page 56 of ATB BITW, look at all the Pz I except the one in the fore-ground.
     
    Owen, Jan 20, 2008
    #22
  3. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Apparently not.
    Mix of lots of types in that picture isn't there, looks like a fair few variations were made on the engine cooling/exhaust theme.
     
    von Poop, Jan 20, 2008
    #23
  4. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Survivors:
    http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Panzer_I.pdf
    The one in Munster looks superb when you consider the conditions it was found in, there was a brief article in Wheels & Tracks about it's discovery and it really looked like the 50 years underground had taken their toll.
     
    von Poop, Jan 20, 2008
    #24
  5. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Photo according to caption is of German units entering Bulgaria March 1941.

    The Panzer I caught by eye for looking rather more like a Bren carrier full of supplies & with what looks like a home made 'windscreen' .

    Anyone care to comment on what variant it actually is & where those screens standard or locally made ?

    [​IMG]
     
    Owen, Mar 4, 2011
    #25
  6. sol

    sol Very Senior Member

    It's Instandsetzugkraftwagen I

    [​IMG]

    From 1936 to November 1938, rebuilt 164 PzKpfw I Ausf B lorries on carts designed for armored company. Vehicles determined as Instandsetzugkraftwagen I (car lorries) or Panzerkampfwagen I Ausf B ohne Aufbau (Panzer I Ausf B without superstructure). The modification was the creation of cargo space through the removal of the tower, the upper shell of the hull and superstructure. In addition, the canisters were transported out of fuel and water and spare parts. In some cars were protecting the crew in front of two large panes of Plexiglas (organic glass) or the windshield of the plate with two small windows. From the top you can stretch canvas tarpaulin. These vehicles were used in armored companies until 1941, although already in 1940, began to withdraw them for school.

    PzKpfw I SdKfz101, Konwersje - Panzerwaffe 1933-45

    And another picture

    [​IMG]

    transporter na podwoziu panzer I - Ogólnopolski miesiêcznik ODKRYWCA
     
    sol, Mar 4, 2011
    #26
    Bodston, Owen and CL1 like this.
  7. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Cheers Enes, thanks.
    Learnt something new today.
     
    Owen, Mar 4, 2011
    #27
  8. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Anyone got any ideas what it is?

    I thought it was like a 'cherry picker'
    [​IMG]

    Close up
    [​IMG]
     
    Drew5233, Sep 5, 2011
    #28
  9. Jedburgh22

    Jedburgh22 Very Senior Member

    Looks like a crane used for lifting out engines
     
    Jedburgh22, Sep 5, 2011
    #29
  10. James S

    James S Very Senior Member

    According to Chamberlain and Doyle , this is an arm which allowed a charge to be laid behind the tank , the arm being cable operated.
    (Another example existed which allowed a charge to be deployed from a slide.)
     
    James S, Sep 5, 2011
    #30
  11. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    this is an arm which allowed a charge to be laid behind the tank , the arm being cable operated


    ....and of course, reversing up to an obstruction like a pillbox or bunker is far safer for the tank crews, being that there's a gurt big engine between you and incoming fire!
     
    phylo_roadking, Sep 5, 2011
    #31
  12. DavidW

    DavidW Well-Known Member

    Ladungsleger is the correct term.
     
    DavidW, Sep 5, 2011
    #32
  13. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Drew, I've bolted your thread onto a previous one on 'Special' Panzer Is mate - hope that's cool.

    Yours is the second variant of the Pz.I Ladungslager/leger - it can drop it's c.75Kg charge to front or rear. First version pretty much had a ramp rather than the swinging arm.

    Do you know if these are 'action' photos? As there's been some discussion over the years as to whether it actually took to operational usage - sure I've seen others in 1940 style columns though. (??)
    Spielberger (bit below-par on the Pz.I) has the contract for this improved version as being placed with Talbot on May the 9th 1940. I'll have a shufti and see what Panzertracts say, as I'm more than rusty on these things of late.
     
    von Poop, Sep 6, 2011
    #33
  14. DavidW

    DavidW Well-Known Member

    I know that both the 200th & the 33rd Panzer Pioneer Battalions were supposed to have had 10 each in North Africa, but I have no photgraphic or documentary proof of them actually being there.
     
    DavidW, Sep 6, 2011
    #34
  15. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Ah, here we go - scratch much of my above.
    Looking in Panzertracts on engineer vehicles - seems to be a confused history and type recognition going on in many other sources, so I'll paraphrase what Jentz & Doyle have in Panzertracts 14:

    This thing with the arm is an 'Abwurfvorrichtungen' -
    100 first officially ordered on 28/12/38, based on an improvised design proven by pioneer battalion 28 of 2nd Panzer div. using a Pz.II.

    Up to 50 Kg of explosive - envisioned that each Pz.Div would have 10 issued.
    All intended for Pz.I ausf. b.
    4/3/40 - Orders issued to create a Panzer Pioneer company in every Pz. Div.
    Eleven I ausf. b issued to each company - (apparently all modified to carry the Abwurfvorrichtungen - one extra vehicle for commanders, operated in two platoons of five vehicles).

    Ladungsleger I is apparently a slightly different thing - Spielberger's info is correct there on date and staying as a project - never went into service except for one each on troop trials to Pz. Divs 3 & 4. Cancelled as attention was focused onto a compressed air launched vehicle-based bangalore torpedo system, which also never came to service.



    So, to summarise - the thing in your pictures, is apparently :unsure: a Pz.I ausf. b mitt Abwurfvorrichtungen.
    The other variants/nomenclature of German Pz.I demolition layers are technically different things.
    (But... I wouldn't be at all surprised if they were all referred to by troops as Ladungslager/leger, as that's a more generic term.)

    Don't you just love a bit of long established Panzer-confusion...
    I'm so often proved misinformed by Jentz & Doyle with their Panzer Tracts series - the somewhat rough production always pales into insignificance when you really need to look up some detail...
     
    von Poop, Sep 6, 2011
    #35
  16. DavidW

    DavidW Well-Known Member

    4/3/40 - Orders issued to create a Panzer Pioneer company in every Pz. Div.
    Eleven I ausf. b issued to each company - (apparently all modified to carry the Abwurfvorrichtungen - one extra vehicle for commanders, operated in two platoons of five vehicles).


    But did it actually happen?
    If so, might those be the vehicles in 200th & 33rd Pz Pio?
     
    DavidW, Sep 6, 2011
    #36
  17. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    The implication in Panzer Tracts, & by some more pictures, and a quick look at scattered references to German ToEs, is that it did.
    I'll have a shufti in Panzertruppen tomorrow (that Jentz man again!).
    Seems likely that ATB's 'Blitzkrieg in the West' might have something too.
     
    von Poop, Sep 6, 2011
    #37
  18. DavidW

    DavidW Well-Known Member

    If you could, that would be great.

    I assume that they appear on contemporary K.s.t.n.
     
    DavidW, Sep 6, 2011
    #38
  19. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Drew, I've bolted your thread onto a previous one on 'Special' Panzer Is mate - hope that's cool.

    No problem


    Do you know if these are 'action' photos?

    I have nearly a 1,000 pictures that I've just started going through them(Hence in sudden increase in photo's posted by me) that are from NARA(?) that I bought off a forum member.

    There are some action shots (Advancing under a artillery/mortar barrage) amongst them, I beleive that all of them are taken in France during 1940 but its hard to link the order of quite a few/most of the pics-If you're interested I'll post some of the distant(ish) shots of Rommels Armour and Mech troops advancing on another thread-I suppose it looks quite impressive if your are into that sort of thing ;)
     
    Drew5233, Sep 6, 2011
    #39
  20. sol

    sol Very Senior Member

    I know that both the 200th & the 33rd Panzer Pioneer Battalions were supposed to have had 10 each in North Africa, but I have no photgraphic or documentary proof of them actually being there.

    No, seems that they didn't have them (according to Bradford's "Rommel's Afrika Korps - El Agheila to El Alamein").
     
    sol, Sep 6, 2011
    #40
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