Pz.I Attachments etc.

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by Owen, Jan 18, 2008.

  1. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Right, I don't know the answer to this one, I'm looking for help.
    Anyone who has ATB Blitzkreig In The West can look at this image on page 261.
    I just PMed Adam then as it was my turn to post here I thought I'd throw it open to all.
    What is the turretless vehicle between these two bridgelayers.
    Sorry for poor quality copy.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Paul Reed likes this.
  2. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Looks like it might be a StuG with the engine covers open... but perhaps too small, some sort of demo charge carrier or schlepper... or even a bruckenlager that's deployed it's bridge... hmm.

    Reproduction not so good in the book either, I'll try & make a clearer scan.
     
  3. Capt.Sensible

    Capt.Sensible Well-Known Member

  4. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    I'd looked at Borgwards and other Demo/ladungs vehicles but couldn't quite fit the protrusions on top, (engine covers up?) & twin exhausts.
    Ah, just checked books & and they also first came in 1942, so too late for this, though there is a reference to them being based on 'experiments during the French campaign with Mark one demo carrier chassis'.

    So perhaps a Pz1 ladungstrager?
    To the internet!
     
  5. Capt.Sensible

    Capt.Sensible Well-Known Member

    I'd looked at Borgwards and other Demo/ladungs vehicles but couldn't quite fit the protrusions on top, (engine covers up?) & twin exhausts.
    Ah, just checked books & and they also first came in 1942, so too late for this, though there is a reference to them being based on 'experiments during the French campaign with Mark one demo carrier chassis'.

    So perhaps a Pz1 ladungstrager?
    To the internet!

    Curses! I didn't think of the chronology, what a plonker....:D
     
  6. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Anyone with that ATB book have a look at page 56, top photo lots of same hull but with turret, what ausf Pz I is that?
    I only know the Pz I with the axle visable on the back, can't find other rear views .
    Help...
     
  7. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Has to be a Sd.Kfz.111 doesn't it?
    Based on the Pz I Ausf A, with engine hatches open.
     
  8. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Suspect we'll never know for certain from that image but I reckon you can make out the distinctive wedge shaped vents on the back plate of it of it. On the 111 I think these were masked by shrouds, it's proving hard to find more than one picture that verifies this though.

    I'll stick with a turretless panzer 1 'of some sort' but do suspect it might be one of these very early ladungstrager trials, particularly as it's captioned as an engineer unit.

    Unless... it is a bruckenlager with the bridge carrying frame removed after deploying.
     
  9. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Bruckenlager , I read there were only 2 of them ever produced.
    I'd be surprised if it was.
     
  10. Bodston

    Bodston Little Willy

    Time to move this into it's own thread?
    Confusion reigns over the quantity produced of these assault bridges built on PzKpfw II chassis.
    For a start there are two different types, the early version Produced by Magirus featured a single span pivoting bridge built on the PzKpfw II Ausf b
    [​IMG]
    The one featured in ATB Blitzkrieg in the West is obviously the version in use in 1940. Built by M.A.N. in 1939 on the chassis of the PzKpfw II Ausf c. It had a two part sliding bridge rated at only 8 tons.
    [​IMG]
    I have read that "at least three" were produced, but in Chamberlain & Doyle they state that "The numbers of these Brückenleger produced is not known, but four were in service with the Engineers of 7th Panzer Division in Belgium and France in 1940."
     
  11. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Moved to own thread, Bod when I said only two produced I was referring to something I read other day about the Pz I bridgelayer, not the Pz II version.*
    I still recon my mystery vehicle is a turretless pz I ausf A , as there is no rear axle exposed and a circular hatch/cover visable on the rear in the photo in the book.

    * Achtung Panzer! - PzKpfw I

    There was another website too with a picture can't find it now.
    edit, this page.
    PzKpfw I

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Bodston

    Bodston Little Willy

    Another shot of the bridge layer
    [​IMG]

    and a rear shot of a Munitionsschlepper Auf PzKpfw I Ausf A (SdKfz 111) showing the engine flaps open. What do you think?
    [​IMG]
     
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  13. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

  14. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Ah, a second rear picture of the 111 which confirms the shrouds, nice.

    But still those shrouds covering the back vents do not appear to be in the grainy picture. The vent's shape is one of the few visible features.
    As I said, we'll probably never know, a positive ID from that shot is impossible.
     
  15. Paul Reed

    Paul Reed Ubique

    What an interesting thread - good info from all concerned.
     
  16. Bodston

    Bodston Little Willy

    It would appear from this shot that the armoured shrouds over the rear vents was a late addition. These pre-war PzKpfw I Ausf A don't have them.
    [​IMG]
    So bearing in mind that the grainly photo was taken early in 1940. I would have thought that very earliest redundant Panzer I's would have been converted to munitionsschlepper first. Aha, I should read Chamberlain & Doyle more, and not just look at the pictures. From 'Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two'
    The original design did not provide adequate ventilation with the result that the air-cooled engine overheated. To reduce this problem, an 'air-scoop' type of louvre was added to the rear deck, and two scoops were added to the rear deck to deflect the exhaust air.
    So it follows that this particular Munitionschlepper was based on the earlier body type. It has the 'air-scoop', otherwise the engine covers would fold flat, but not the scoops designed to prevent exhaust gases being sucked back into the engine. Which is why we can't see any shrouds and the reason why it is running with it's engine covers open.
     
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  17. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Can't find a picture of a gun-tank carrying that plate and shrouding, must be one out there? Would have to be an Ausf. A as the overheating problem seems to have been cured by the B.
    (If you can call a mark one a 'Gun-tank'.)
    Top down & rear views are always the trickiest to find aren't they.

    Cheers Owen , this threads going to cost me another Spielberger book that's missing... at least it covers the II as well. :mellow:
     
  18. Bodston

    Bodston Little Willy

    Can't find a picture of a gun-tank carrying that plate and shrouding, must be one out there? Would have to be an Ausf. A as the overheating problem seems to have been cured by the B.
    (If you can call a mark one a 'Gun-tank'.)
    Top down & rear views are always the trickiest to find aren't they.

    Cheers Owen , this threads going to cost me another Spielberger book that's missing... at least it covers the II as well. :mellow:
    Found one..
    [​IMG]
     
    von Poop likes this.
  19. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Sweet.
    Been chasing my tail on that one and getting very distracted by Canadian armoured cars.

    Nice to have another Ausf-indicator ;).
    (Taking into account it wasn't fitted to all of 'em (a's) of course, but at least it's a sure 'A'... I hope).
    Have some reputation points.
     
  20. Bodston

    Bodston Little Willy

    Another interesting Ausf A variant is the often ignored (except by model manufacturers) Flakpanzer I. This again came in two versions. Model 1 has the original twin engine hatches whereas the second version (see scale drawing) has a single large engine grille made from wire mesh, to aid cooling one supposes. Both of these Flakpanzers share a vertical rear plate drilled with holes in place of the shrouds.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     

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