Pte G W Cope & Stalag XXA, Thorn/Torun (B.A.B 20), XXB Marienburg/Malbork (B.A.B 84) & VIIIB Teschen

Discussion in 'Prisoners of War' started by LCpl Lee Cope, Sep 8, 2013.

  1. ClankyPencil

    ClankyPencil Senior Member

    4803567 looks more like a Service Number to me.

    Is it possible that it is the Service No of the other person in the photo?

    If it is then the person would be linked to the Lincolnshire Regiment.
     
  2. LCpl Lee Cope

    LCpl Lee Cope Active Member

    Could possibly be Clankypencil... I did try looking for a service number, but couldn't find anything. Would you know of any record in the Lincolnshire regiment with that regimental number?
     
  3. ClankyPencil

    ClankyPencil Senior Member

    With regard to the photo with the numbers on the back these would be my observations:-

    1. I think the photo was taken early WW2, as the breast pockets on the uniform have pleats (and as the war progressed, i think later uniforms were issued with plain pockets).
    2. Not 100% certain, but the cap badges worn by the 2 men appear to be different, so likely the 2 men were in different regiments.
    3. The writing on the back is in 2 different handwritngs. I think one is 505 (not SOS) and was likely scribbled on by the developer as a ref number (i.e order no or something similar), The other i believe is an Army/Service no 4803567 with a comma at the end (not a 1).

    Considering the above, i think the other soldier in the photo is either a close friend of George's or possibly a family member, with the Army/Service No of 4803567.
    This would indicate he started out in the Army with the Lincolnshire Regt, but a lot of soldiers moved units throughout the War, so likely he finished the war with another unit. (For instance the soldier with the next Service number 4803568 was killed near El Alamein in 1942 while serving with the Royal Artillery, 120Bty, 30 LAA Rgt. http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2092256/ )

    There are no casualties on the CWGC database with the Service No 4803567 so looks like he survived the war. With him not being a casualty etc i am not sure where you would be able to find his name.

    There is a slight possibility he may have been a fellow POW in the same camps etc, but not sure how you would check POW lists etc without a name.

    Cheers

    Scott
     
  4. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Searching Ancestry (All UK, British Prisoners of War, 1939-1945 ) just for the regiment - Lincolnshire - then there are 375 names that come up, with a whole host of different service numbers other that starting 480xxxx. There are service numbers starting with 1's, 2's, 3's, 5's.

    I also ran a search just on the number 4803567 and oddly that came up with about 3 pages of details (147) of which 47 had service numbers starting 480..., but when I read their 'regiments' some came up as:
    4803606 - Kings Own Royal
    4803977 - Army Air Corps
    4803267 - Yorks & Lancs
    4803786 - Army Air Corps
    4803722 - Royal Signals
    4803335 - Corps of Military Police
    4803781 - Sherwood Foresters
    4803329 - Seaforth Highlanders

    I thought it was going to be easy to find out if this 4803567 was a POW or not, but it seems to have opened a can of worms :(

    TD

    edited to add: have been through all 375 Lincolnshires and that number does not appear, so it could be assumed he was not a POW and with no CWGC ref (as Scott states) he probably survived.
     
  5. LCpl Lee Cope

    LCpl Lee Cope Active Member

    That's some good work there folks! Many thanks for looking into this for me.

    I thought I'd cracked it with the SOS 4803567 written upon the back of the photo, because the last Four numbers came up on the world map as being on the border of the Czech Republic and very close to Lambinowice, where George was kept. Maybe my imagination got the better of me?

    It did originaly spring to my mind that it could be a photo that George kept in his pocket of him and his younger brother Ronald Cope who served in the Royal Artillery during WW2.

    I looked for any sign of Ronald Cope's regimental number, and the chances of it being 4803567, but I cannot find it anywhere and I did exactly the same as you guys.

    Is there possibly a WW2 Royal Artilary database we haven't looked into that Ronald Cope could be on?
     
  6. ClankyPencil

    ClankyPencil Senior Member

    There is a fair chance then that the photo is of George and his younger brother Ronald.

    As for looking for Ronald on a RA database or list, you'll be looking for a needle in a haystick, as i think there were more soldiers in the Royal Artillery than all the other services combined at one point.

    If you are planning on going down that route i would start looking at the 30th LAA Rgt RA first. As per my previous post, the soldier with the next service no to 4803567 was killed whilst serving in that unit, and it would make some sense for them to have transferred to the RA at the same time, and to the same unit.

    In my view though, you are likely to end up on a wild goose chase, and the only way to get to the truth is to get the Service Records of both George & Ronald.

    Cheers

    Scott
     
  7. LCpl Lee Cope

    LCpl Lee Cope Active Member

    Very true, I have all the paperwork ready to send for George, but at £30 each I'll need to be sending them separately.

    It is after all the definitive way to find out any useful information about there time in the armed forces.

    many thanks for the help.
     
    Drew5233 likes this.
  8. LCpl Lee Cope

    LCpl Lee Cope Active Member

    Hello folks,

    I'm currently researching my Great Granduncle private George William Cope regimental number: 5887506.

    George was a part of the withdraw to Dunkirk during "The Battle of France" and was sadly captured 10 June 1940, Seven days after Operation Dynamo ended on the 03 June 1940.

    I'm under the impression that George was one of the 40,000 ,men of the BEF who were captured at "St Valery-en-Caus", but I'm not positive and thus spent Five years at the following POW camps.

    POW number: 12940

    Camp 1. Stalag XXA Poland 01 July 1940 - Dec 1940 - Road Making.
    Camp 2. Stalag XXB East Prussia Dec 1940 - Sep 1943 - Farmer.
    Camp 3. Stalag VIIIB Ober Silesia Sep 1943 - Jan 1945 - Coal Miner.

    I'm going to apply to the MOD for his service records, and I already have his liberation questionnaire, but I've been unable to find out his Battalion within the Northamptonshire Regiment.

    How may Battalions did the Northamptonshire Regiment that were involved in The Battle of France & Dunkirk have?

    Any assistance would be very much appreciated.

    Kind regards,

    Lee.
     
  9. LCpl Lee Cope

    LCpl Lee Cope Active Member

    Hello folks,

    I'm currently researching my Great Granduncle private George William Cope regimental number: 5887506.

    George was a part of the withdraw to Dunkirk during "The Battle of France" and was sadly captured 10 June 1940, Seven days after Operation Dynamo ended on the 03 June 1940.

    I'm under the impression that George was one of the 40,000 ,men of the BEF who were captured at "St Valery-en-Caus", but I'm not positive and thus spent Five years at the following POW camps.

    POW number: 12940

    Camp 1. Stalag XXA Poland 01 July 1940 - Dec 1940 - Road Making.
    Camp 2. Stalag XXB East Prussia Dec 1940 - Sep 1943 - Farmer.
    Camp 3. Stalag VIIIB Ober Silesia Sep 1943 - Jan 1945 - Coal Miner.

    I'm going to apply to the MOD for his service records, and I already have his liberation questionnaire, but I've been unable to find out his Battalion within the Northamptonshire Regiment.

    How may Battalions did the Northamptonshire Regiment that were involved in The Battle of France & Dunkirk have?

    Any assistance would be very much appreciated.

    Kind regards,

    Lee.
     
  10. LCpl Lee Cope

    LCpl Lee Cope Active Member

    So far I can see that the 2nd & the 5th Battalion were the only Northamptonshire Regiment Battalions there; is this correct or was there more Battalions there?
     
  11. LCpl Lee Cope

    LCpl Lee Cope Active Member

    So far I can see that the 2nd & the 5th Battalion were the only Northamptonshire Regiment Battalions there; is this correct or was there more Battalions there?
     
  12. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Merged 3 threads again about same chap with duplicated info.
     
  13. LCpl Lee Cope

    LCpl Lee Cope Active Member

    Hello folks,

    I've recently received another image of Pte George William Cope and I've managed to match 14 men who are on both images.

    Pte George W Cope served in The Northamptonshire Regiment and I was wondering if all the other men are from the same or other regiments?

    When I did my training in Catterick for The Guards we were a mix of Grenadier, Coldstream, Scot's, Irish & Welsh & I know other regiments trained with a mix of cap badges too. So I'm assuming what with the build up of the BEF for WW2 it would have been a similar situation.

    I know you guys have a keen eye for the finer details in such things as badges and uniform's, and I'm trying to tie down where image B was taken.

    Image A was taken at Stalag XXB and posted back home by George W Cope too his mother Mrs Louisa Cope 52 Station Street, Castle Gresley.

    Image B was taken presumably in the training depot around 1939?

    Pte George W Cope is Man number 2 in both images, and I'm very keen to find out who the other men are, so if anyone recognizes any then please feel free to get in touch.

    Regards,

    Lee.
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Have you sent off for any service records? You should have them by now?
     
  15. LCpl Lee Cope

    LCpl Lee Cope Active Member

    Afraid not yet Drew,

    I've spent some time on my family tree and finally managed to contact Pte George William Cope's son.

    Recently I've discovered from his son that George returned home from his internment as a POW, and when his medals arrived he threw them in the bin.

    George never, ever mentioned the War again, not to his wife or to his children.

    He took his story to the grave.

    George's family had a vague idea of what happened to George in WW2, and we are going to request the papers together.

    It's the right and proper thing to do, and they have kindly contributed £20 towards the MOD charge for the records.
     
  16. LCpl Lee Cope

    LCpl Lee Cope Active Member

    Hello again folks,

    After much searching and having succesfully contacted Pte George William Cope's son & daughter, who are very appreciative of how helpful you have all been, I'm back in the hunt!

    so as a quick recap, from what I can see The Northamptonshire Regiment had Three Battalions serving as part of the 1939-40 BEF.

    The 2nd Battalion were part of the 5th Infantry Division, 17th Infantry Brigade, alongside:
    2nd Battalion Royal Scot's Fusiliers,
    6th Battalion The Seaforth Highlanders &
    The 17th Infantry Brigade Anti-Tank Coy.

    The 5th Battalion were part of the 4th Infantry Division, 11th Infantry Brigade, alongside:
    2nd Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers,
    1st Battalion The East Surrey Regiment &
    The 11th Infantry Brigade Anti-Tank Coy.

    I've looked back over the comments for this thread and It's stated that the 1st Battalion were in The Far East.

    I'm trying to understand why Pte George William Cope was captured by German Forces 10th June 1940, when the Northamptonshire Regiment had already been evacuated from Dunkirk.

    I'm assuming that as previously mentioned George was either separated, detached or redeployed and as a result ended up with a mixed group of soldiers among the chaos that ensued as part of the withdraw to Dunkirk.

    I'm currently reading "The Men They Left Behind" written by "Sean Longden" which has come highly recommended and from what can I see in Chapter Four, The 51st Highland Division at St Valery were pretty much a mixture of those who didn't make it to Dunkirk.

    I wonder if George ended up as part of the 51st Highland Division, which would make sense as when they were captured, they were moved North from St-Valery-En-Caux to Terneuzen via barge & Cattle truck to the Ruhr and finally Stalag XXA "Torun or Thorn", which was George's first POW camp.

    Regards,

    Lee.

    PS. Third Image courtesy of the "Sean Longden" book "The Men They Left Behind".
     

    Attached Files:

  17. LCpl Lee Cope

    LCpl Lee Cope Active Member

    Hello folks,

    Today I received Two images of my granduncle during his time as a POW.

    From what I've learned so far, once captured by the German forces after Dunkirk, the men of the BEF were marched and detained in various different POW camps.

    Whilst in these camps the men were used as a labor force. Roads were built, mines were dug and farm's tended too. Philip Graham Cope, who is George's youngest brother explained to me that whilst George was detained, a German Officer wished that a boxing ring be built within the camp, and the men of the BEF would conduct boxing matches against each other.

    This was used as a form of entertainment for both the POW's and the German guards alike, but would also serve as a way for the lads to keep fit and strong.

    I can see from the main image that the front chap is holding a board titled "E72 BOXING TEAM".

    From what I've just read "Camp E72" would be "E72 Beuthen... Is this correct?

    "E72" was an "Arbeitskommandos" and I found this link to be very useful.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalag_VIII-B

    I have also found this site to be of much use. The Clarion articles write about how the new boxing ring was built and appeared to be the source of much excitement.

    http://www.lamsdorf.com/

    Image One: Pte George William Cope: Middle Row, fourth man from the right.

    Image Two: Pte George William Cope: Middle row, first man on the left.

    PS. Oh, and if anyone knows who any of the other chaps in the images are then please feel free to contact me.

    Regards,

    Lee.
     

    Attached Files:

  18. LCpl Lee Cope

    LCpl Lee Cope Active Member

    Hello folks,

    I'm currently investigating George's second work camp which was: Stalag XXB.

    Upon the rear of a photo that was sent from there, the words "Stalag XXB 84" are written.

    I'm under the assumption that this "84" is yet again another Arbeitskommandos number. Only problem is that I cannot find much information on Stalag XXB 84. Was this camp situated in Marienburg?

    I may need some help with this one...
     

    Attached Files:

  19. LCpl Lee Cope

    LCpl Lee Cope Active Member

    After Three years of searching, George's granddaughter has sent me an image of George's Stalag XXA POW dog-tag - 12940.

    The one thing about this piece of metal is that it went through it all with him and just like him, it survived!

    Very proud to see it after such a long time searching!
     

    Attached Files:

    Owen likes this.
  20. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Well done, Lee. Now you need his service record in the hope it gives more clues to the circumstances of his capture.

    I think we sometimes forget the part that amateur boxing played in pre-war army (and indeed working class civilian life).
     
    LCpl Lee Cope likes this.

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