Problem with Royal Engineers

Discussion in 'Service Records' started by prt1998, Nov 23, 2011.

  1. prt1998

    prt1998 Junior Member

    I am trying to trace my grandfathers activities from 1939 to 1946. He died with dementia before I could get the whole story together.

    He was called up in 1939 to the Royal Engineers and as a far as I can ascertain spent time in Glasgow (lots of Scots he could not understand), noerth england before being landed a few days after D-Day with 15th Scottish Division.

    He talked of fighting the 2nd and 12th SS divisions in Normandy and being involved in some difficult situations but never really went into too much detail.

    I got his service records but they are mostly blank - apparently the records office was destroyed by bombing during the war. What little I got said he finished the war with 232 Army Troops in Germany, but I cannot find any reference to this unit. I am assuming it may have been a catch all for men to be demobbed.

    Anyone any ideas about how to try and trace what his unit (s) history was. He got a fair few medals and turned down promotion according to my Aunty who is the last vestige of any information.

    I dont want his story to end with a blank as he was a very kind and loving grandfather.:confused:
     
  2. Rosalind

    Rosalind Junior Member

    232 Army Troops seems to have been an active unit - if you have a look at Geoff's search engine (Geoff's 1939-47 Search Engine), you'll see that there are several casualties for that unit in the UK, Belgium and Germany. There's also a 232 field company there - somebody better informed than I will tell you if there is a relationship between them. I've a chapter from a book which lists RE companies and tells you a bit about them and I can't find 232 army troops in there, but 232 field company it says was 'destroyed' in 1 Jun 42 and 'relieved', but as I say, I don't know if the field company and the army troops are related.

    Others will be able to help more - good luck!

    Yours,

    Ros
     
  3. bofors

    bofors Senior Member

    Hi prt1998

    Why not post his records here, also what medals he got, some are searchable on the London Gazette and they may give a clue to his regiment. Also the more knowledgable people her may be able to find something in his service records.

    regards

    Robert
     
  4. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Have split this query from the existing thread it was in.
     
  5. Oldman

    Oldman Very Senior Member

    PRT1998
    15th (Scottish) Infantry Division RE 2nd line TA division formed in 1939 as duplicate of 52nd
    (Lowland) Division. The division was placed on the lower establishment Nov 1941, and then raised back to
    the higher establishment Mar 1943. It served with 21st Army Group and ended the war in Germany. It was
    disbanded there in 1946.
    Embodied with 278th, 279th and 280th Field Coys RE and 281st Field Park Coy RE. (279th Field
    Coy RE relieved 9 Feb 1940 and returned 12 Jul 1940.)
    281st Field Park Coy RE relieved 12 Jan 1942 (replaced by a field stores section same date) when
    division placed on lower establishment. 280th Field Coy RE relieved 15 Dec 1942.
    624th Field Park Coy RE assigned 14 Jan 1943 (and field stores section relieved 1 Feb 1943).
    Division RE was completed again 26 Mar 1943 when 20th Field Coy RE assigned.
    28th Bridging Pln RE assigned 1 Oct 1943

    232nd (Northumbrian) Field Coy RE 1st line TA; 3 Sep 1939: Newcastle-on-Tyne; embodied with
    50th (Northumbrian) Division; relieved 20 Jul 1941. Assigned 50th (Northumbrian) Infantry
    Division 14 Aug 1941; relieved 27 Nov 1941. With 150th Infantry Brigade 27 Nov 1941 to 21 Feb
    1942. Assigned 50th (Northumbrian) Infantry Division 22 Feb 1942; destroyed 1 Jun 1942 in
    North Africa and relieved.

    That is the info on what you have posted, could you please post the document you have so we can review and ascertain what further assistance we can give.

    It maybe worth going back to the records people and asking if there is further information for him.
     
  6. prt1998

    prt1998 Junior Member

    Thanks for advice.

    He never mentioned North Africa so I think that one is a dead end. the 232 Army troops is defintely mentioned on his record but the rest of it is almost blank. I will look at the search engine.

    As for his medals I remember been given them to play with as a toddler and there were about 6 of them, some seem to have been the 'star' medals for thearte participation etc but there were a couple of round silver ones as I remember. Irony is like a lot of the heroes of his generation he never made a big thing out of it and his medals have gone missing. Its just mind blowing to know he spent 7 years of his life away from his wife and family with no idea how it was going to end. My gran told me a story that when he got home in 1946 my dad kicked the 'stranger on the shins' becuase he hardly kew who he was. My grandfather got 1 weeks leave after my dads birth but did not seem him again until he was 3!

    I get the impression that 'army troops' tended to be used all over the place rather than assigned to specific units within a division.

    I will try and get the service records scanned so you can see.

    Thanks again for advice.
     
  7. prt1998

    prt1998 Junior Member

    ps. Oldman

    Like the 'Jackson' quote - quite apt as my grandad said he was involved in a fair few river crossings during 1944 and 1945.
     
  8. Oldman

    Oldman Very Senior Member

    PRT1998
    Had a look again most Army Troops are 500+ and 700+ designated units, wonder if the Orbat I am using is wrong or misleading.
    Will have a look tonight for you.
     
  9. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    232 Field Coy has 8 war diaries at the National Archives covering all of WW2 - They went to France in 1940 :)
     
  10. prt1998

    prt1998 Junior Member

    Drew5233

    Definitely not 232 Field Coy - that was early war in france and later north africa and he never mentioned the desert. Grandad was called up 1939 so if it was Field Coy he would have been in France in 1940 and he never mentioned anything that early as far as france is concerned. Geoffs search engine shows 3 killed from 232 Army Troops Coy buried in Oostende Cemetary - all on same day 26/11/1944. Other unit deaths tally up with grandads timeline of landing in normandy just after D-Day and some of the places he mentioned - antwerp, Germany etc.
     
  11. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I'm not a RE expert but I think they are one and the same thing.
     
  12. Oldman

    Oldman Very Senior Member

    Prt1998

    As Drew says the are more than likely the same company, if you can get to the National Archieves then look up WO 171/1596 Jan - Dec 1944
    WO 171/5512 Jan Dec 1945

    They will tell you if it is the same unit, they were originaly attached to 50th Division until there demise in 1942. I would see if they appear with them in their North West Europe phase.

    This information and unit designators are the best I can find from my limited resources at work, suffice to say that the RE's did change unit names in 1943 and it depends who wrote on your fathers records/unit record that the information was drawn from
     
  13. prt1998

    prt1998 Junior Member

    Quick update.

    gone through his service record in more detail it says he was assigned to 280th field Company with 15th Scottish Division. 1943 232 Army Troops coy R.E. is used so he must have been part of the lower establishment process at end of 1942 identified by Oldman. His record says up to august 1944 he is in Frnace, august 1944 to May 1945 Belgium, then Germany until Feb 1946. He was sent home end of February 1946 to the Y list then to a Z list at the end of may 1946, and was still on the reserve list until 1959.

    The records are almost illegible due to extremely small hand writing. He seems to have gone from Lance Corporal to Corporal and something labeled W/ Corporal?

    My aunty has said he mentioned Canadians a lot - could be some attachment to them around antwerp where other unit members may have been killed end of november 1944 in Walcheren thing.

    Any help still gratefully received.
     
  14. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    W/ Corporal is War Substansive Corporal

    · Rank. Is the official level in the military hierarchy, with appropriate pay and allowances.
    · Substantive (Rank). Is the fully paid and confirmed (commissioned) permanent rank.
    · War substantive (Rank) The holder may revert at the end of war to previous rank held
    · Acting (Rank). The holder assumes the pay and allowances appropriate to the acting rank, but a higher commanding officer may revert him to previous rank held.
    · Brevet (Rank). Is a temporary rank, often honorary, without the pay and allowances appropriate to the rank
    · Local or Temporary (Rank). Is an unpaid rank, usually granted for a specific task operation or mission in a specific location or period.


    Ranks: An Explanation of Substantive, Acting, Temporary Ranks
     
  15. prt1998

    prt1998 Junior Member

    232 Field coy was not with 50th division in 1944. It was 'destroyed' during N african campaign and commanding officer killed, unit not reconstituted.

    will keep trying thanks for efforts to date.
     
  16. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    232 Field coy was not with 50th division in 1944. It was 'destroyed' during N african campaign and commanding officer killed, unit not reconstituted.

    will keep trying thanks for efforts to date.

    It will all be in the units war diaries if you can get to Kew. There's enough diaries there to make a day trip worthwhile assuming you are in the UK.

    Cheers
    Andy
     

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