Private T.A. Butcher, 5th Battalion Dorsetshire Regiment - 'accidentally killed'

Discussion in 'British Army Units - Others' started by PMB, Dec 1, 2018.

  1. PMB

    PMB New Member

    The usual story... I'm new to this forum, and I've been researching the family history. My aunt's first husband was Private Thomas Arnold Butcher, army number 5680687. He joined the 5th battalion of the Dorsetshire Regiment in 1940, and was 'accidentally killed' on 18th November 1943, aged 32. The death is registered in Lewes, Sussex. He was subsequently buried in his (and my) home town of Bath.

    My mother (Thomas' sister-in-law) told me many years ago that Thomas had been shot in an accident. I'd like to find out if that is true, and also where the 5th battalion were stationed on that date - presumably somewhere in Sussex, preparing for D-Day.

    The Regimental museum couldn't tell me much more than this - the 5th battalion were somewhere on the south coast with their sister battalion (the 4th), on defence duties and taking part in exercises. But they couldn't say any more than he was 'accidentally killed'.

    Can anyone help me find out more about this? Many thanks.
     
  2. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    hello
    firstly apply for his service records
    Get a copy of military service records

    plus apply for his death certificate which will tell you all

    im sure forum members will be along shortly to add further
     
  3. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

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  4. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi,

    Welcome to the forum.

    You ought to apply for his service records via this link -

    Get a copy of military service records

    However I doubt there will be any in depth detail of the circumstances of his death in his file. There will likely have been a court of enquiry after his death but MOD policy does not permit the release of those papers - unlike in Canada and Australia where you often find court of enquiry papers in online service files and occasionally even copies of the civilian inquests.

    Your best bet might be to search newspapers in the Lewes and Bath areas for mention of the incident.


    There are coroners reports for Lewes held at East Sussex Records Office - further information in this link - which states public access is permitted on site to view inquest papers kept there for hearings held over 75 years ago

    https://www.eastsussex.gov.uk/leisureandtourism/localandfamilyhistory/familyhistory/collections/

    I’m sure other members may have other suggestions.

    Good Luck

    Steve

    EDIT TO ADD

    It might be worthwhile - once you have a copy of his service file - to submit a separate Freedom Of Information request to MOD to request release of any material they hold in relation to his death. I don’t see any public interest in withholding that information after 75 years.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
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  5. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

    Unfortunately it doesn't provide an answer but his death was reported in a Bath newspaper:
    Butcher.jpg
     
  6. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
    Name: Thomas A Butcher
    Death Age: 31
    Birth Date: abt 1912
    Registration Date: Dec 1943
    Registration district: Lewes
    Inferred County: Sussex
    Volume: 2b
    Page: 274

    UK, Army Roll of Honour, 1939-1945
    Name: Thomas Butcher
    Given Initials: T A
    Rank: Private
    Death Date: 18 Nov 1943
    Number: 5680687
    Birth Place: Bath
    Residence: Bath
    Branch at Enlistment: Infantry
    Theatre of War: United Kingdom
    Regiment at Death: Dorsetshire Regiment
    Branch at Death: Infantry

    TD
     
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  7. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

    Bath Chronicle 25 Nov 1944:
    Butcher2.jpg

    ps; can't trace anything in Sussex papers.

    ps again; have you got his death certificate?
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
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  8. gaspirator

    gaspirator Member

    I've had a quick look in my database and the war diary states: "The Bn carried out a night firing exercise "illumination" in the area S(outh) Downs. Unfortunately, Pte Butcher of 'A' Coy was killed on the exercise."

    Given the death was registered in Lewes, I suspect the exercise was on South Downs Training Area block 4. So far, I believe about 13 men were killed in field firing accidents 1942-43 in this area. I reconstructed a 1942 Canadian exercise from archive documents, including the loss of 3 infantrymen from an artillery shell falling short. Not related to Butcher's death, but my write-up gives an idea of the sort of training (and risks) that he may have been exposed to: Friendly fire tragedy at Lewes (Part 1)

    The battalion was in Hastings from October 1943 and had left by 18th June 1944, landing on Gold Beach in Normandy on the 23rd.

    There may be one or two other minor leads I can chase up regarding Butcher, but in my experience of the other incidents, the units involved tend not to impart much information.

    - Pete
     
  9. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Thanks for sharing the link to your informative site.

    Unfortunately none of the 3 Canadian service files have been digitised as there would’ve been a lot of helpful information about the friendly fire incident in each of them - court of enquiry reports etc.

    As an aside I was recently reading the court of enquiry report in a service file for a Canadian who died in a Southampton Hospital 18th August 1942 having suffered grenade wounds while aboard HMS Duke of Wellington on the evening of 17th August 1942. Military classification of death was accidentally killed.

    The ship was in port awaiting departure for Operation Jubilee at Dieppe (landings 19th August) and soldiers were ordered to prime grenades. One grenade went off accidentally fatally wounding 2 soldiers and wounding another 10 or more who were in close proximity below decks.

    There was no inquest and the copy death certificate on the file merely states cause of death was war operations.

    Despite not landing in France the unfortunate serviceman was awarded the 39/45 Star.

    Steve
     
  10. PMB

    PMB New Member

    Many thanks everyone for your information. I can see I have more work to do. At some point when time allows I'll check out the sources suggested. I've been to Thomas' grave in Bath and the sadness of it all made me want to find out a bit more.

    Tom's wife (my aunt) went on to marry another ex-soldier after the war, called Roy V Sellar (1920-2005). Before Uncle Roy died I talked to him about some very interesting things that happened to him while he was in the army, so I'd like to research his service history too. Nothing comes up on Ancestry.co.uk, although maybe it's because I'm a beginner.

    I also want to find out my father's service record as an aircraftsman in the RAF. I've no idea where he was stationed after he did his initial training at RAF Locking. I wish I'd found out more when they were all alive. I have his service number somewhere, so it should be straightforward.

    Plenty to keep me busy...
    Many thanks again
    Phil
     
  11. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Phil

    Nothing will come up on Ancestry or any of the other sites that 'offer' access to records as they can only offer access to publically accessible databases and WW2 service records are still held privately by the MOD - so if you want to start researching a WW2 soldiers records then there is only one place to go - Request records of deceased service personnel

    TD
     
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  12. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

    This may - or may not be him, however there is a newspaper article suggesting he came from Bath so perhaps it is. I agree with TD above, get his service records and start a new post when you are certain on the identity. You do not need service details to get these records, just date of birth and death certificate.

    Note that some records have his name as SELLARS, so you need to allow for this when searching.

    Casualty List No. 536 Dated 11 June 1941
    Expeditionary Forces / Middle East / Greece

    410380 Tpr R V Sellars RAC 4th Hussars
    Missing 28/4/41

    Casualty List No. 657 Dated 31 October 1941
    Name corrected to Sellar

    Casualty List No. 640 Dated 11 Oct 1941
    POW (Previously reported missing)
    410380 Tpr R V Sellars RAC 4th Hussars [name hand corrected to Sellar]


    Casualty List No. 1804 Dated 10 July 1945
    Previously reported POW in German hands now not POW (Regiment stated as 4 RTR)
    410380 Tpr R V Sellars RAC 4th Hussars

    Also
    POW Camp No: 78
    Name: Sellars RV Tpr
    Army No: 410380
    Regt: RAC
    RO No: 3

    POW Camp No: 4F [Hartmansdorf Chemnitz]
    POW No: 253225
    Name: Sellars RV Tpr
    Army No: 410380
    Regt: RAC
    RO No: 3
     
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  13. PMB

    PMB New Member

    Yes that fits, I'm sure it's him. He told me that his initial training involved learning to ride a horse, a skill which he never had to use again - that would fit with the 4th Hussars. Then my memory is letting me down, but I think he said he was taken prisoner and later escaped (near the end of the war maybe?) with the help of some Russian prisoners, who showed him how to build an underground shelter in the snow to survive. I definitely need to pursue this!
    Excellent stuff, thank you.
    Phil
     
  14. PMB

    PMB New Member

    I've been reading Andrew Roberts' new biography of Churchill - just realised that the the 4th Hussars was Churchill's old regiment!
     

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