Post Traumatic Stress

Discussion in 'Veteran Accounts' started by Trincomalee, Oct 3, 2007.

  1. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Lovely picture Drew mate.... There is something to be gained out of the experience. You my friend, will know your own worth..... having had it put to the test under the circumstances that prevail.
    Sapper.

    PS Thing is; you cannot compare Iraq or Afghanistan to previous world wars, there is no comparison. For a start the density of incoming fire is totally different. As are the entire surroundings. Not that it takes anything away from our lads now.They are still paying the price...Bless Them.
    Sapper
     
  2. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    It was indeed a little cheeky of me Ron. I apologise for posting somewhat off the cuff mate.

    I think all I'm saying is that we have chaps on this thread that have served in multiple different wars, and their perceptions of 'PTSD' (however that's defined) do not appear to exactly chime with each other.
    There may be a 'great divide between veterans and non-veterans', of course there is. But there does also seem to be a significant one on PTSD amongst veterans (or ex-servicemen) themselves. The experience of war & it's aftermath, naturally, seems far from universal.

    You WW2 blokes are here talking. Obviously I accept your points of view as your own, it's interesting hearing them. But the fact of your presence doesn't deny that there are quite likely many others of your generation that wouldn't touch a WW2 forum, or any other discussion of war with a bargepole for various possible reasons, & we're certainly unlikely to hear from those that were traumatised by the war.
    Attendance at postwar reunions does not seem to have been universal, unclaimed or unworn medals seem not uncommon - there is surely another side to the WW2 story.

    Thing is; you cannot compare Iraq or Afghanistan to previous world wars, there is no comparison. For a start the density of incoming fire is totally different. As are the entire surroundings.
    Brian, I'd have thought the experience for the individual of being shot or blown up was largely very similar, from any war in any period. There are accounts from the English Civil War of men being maddened by shot, and on the ground reports from much of the Afghan experience are not exactly talking of lack of density in attacks. I seem to recall 'The most intense Battles for the British Army since Korea' being a common phrase when the fighting first began.

    There might perhaps even be a case for modern counterinsurgency wars with limited rules of engagement, a mixed enemy, and far more uncertainty about the overall cause/aim placing more strain on the mind?

    ~A

    (By the way - pinned the thread.)
     
    Capt Bill likes this.
  3. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran Patron

    Adam

    I cheerfully accept your apology but I'd still like an answer to my question:

    I did think, however, that on this forum the use of the title "Veteran" only applied to those who had seen active service between the beginning of WW2 in 1939 and the end of war in 1945.

    Has this specification been changed ?




    Ron
     
  4. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    That 'specification' surely goes out of the window when discussing PTSD in general as this thread does. We haven't exactly focused on WW2 here.

    The opinions of other Veterans of other wars have an equal weight in such discussions I'd say.
    They don't stop being 'veterans' by visiting a WW2 site, they're just not 'WW2 Veterans'.
     
  5. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran Patron

    Adam

    Agreed, I think .........

    Ron
     
  6. Capt Bill

    Capt Bill wanderin off at a tangent

    my 20 + years in service (and I wear my Veterans badge daily, with pride) does not equate to my fathers weekend TA camp in sept 1939. My 6 month tours do not equate to his 6 years of hell with the 8th Army

    I think now would be a good time to lock this topic before people get upset and damage to reputations is done

    we are all individuals, made unique, with different experiences expectations and understandings - or as the CSM used to tell me 'opinions are like arseholes lad, everyone has got one'

    maybe its time to start a post ww2 talk website (no im not volunteering :))
     
  7. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Stop it? Why..... Its themes like this that are the life blood of these sites
     
    Owen likes this.
  8. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    I just wish to reafirm what has been said before by several members.

    I have no military background, but served as a Police Officer in the UK for many years, including firearms duty.

    I believe that PTSD is not just confined to the Military.
    Due to my personal experiences, both as a Constable and as a Supervisor, I have attended many serious incidents of assaults where victims have been stabbed, glassed in the face etc, sometimes fatally, not to mention my traffic experiences.

    Being a professional you are expected to get on with the job at hand, but there are times when the job effects you.
    I found that when dealing with a young child that has just lost their life in a Road Traffic Accident, this effected me much more than I care to mention.

    I was Supervisor at a Railway death on the main Euston - Glasgow laine at Coppull, Lancashre.

    I will not go into details as it was a harrowing sight, but the following night the reporting officer, a young constable, reported unfit for duty and was signed off work for over two weeks.

    As far as I can see this was a typical case of PTSD effecting one person, but not others who also saw the same sight.

    It is locked in my memory and I can never forget this incident.

    Sorry for blabbing on, but stress effects everyone in different ways. Some show it and others do not.


    Regards
    Tom
     
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  9. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Fair enough ! But the reactions to violence of any type will always differ with the nature of the individual concerned. I think that is the nub of the matter.IT is also fair to say that PTS was unknown in my service days. Seriously we never heard of such maladies..... Bomb happy for sure..But for many of us old uns it is a new phenomena..

    Here as I am sure Ron and Tom will agree .it did not exists then... If it did, it was not recognised. Did we have to battle to get back into civilian life post war? You bet your Bibby we did, and had to beat down the opposition to re-employing war disabled ex service men...

    I will admit to use the term (Fought like a bastard) to get back. We were not wanted. And that is not unusual, it is a very common situation that faced us on our return... But nowhere did PTS arise. This return for the war disabled was fraught with frustration. The Country was bankrupt, we had no fuel, precious little money, and we lived from hand to mouth....But there was no PTS...

    One thing it did do... Any man that went through that period, far from suffering PTS would go the other way...We that we struggled and won, WE KNOW OUR OWN WORTH.
    Sapper
     
  10. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    I just wish to reafirm what has been said before by several members.

    I have no military background, but served as a Police Officer in the UK for many years, including firearms duty.

    I believe that PTSD is not just confined to the Military.
    Due to my personal experiences, both as a Constable and as a Supervisor, I have attended many serious incidents of assaults where victims have been stabbed, glassed in the face etc, sometimes fatally, not to mention my traffic experiences.

    Being a professional you are expected to get on with the job at hand, but there are times when the job effects you.
    I found that when dealing with a young child that has just lost their life in a Road Traffic Accident, this effected me much more than I care to mention.

    I was Supervisor at a Railway death on the main Euston - Glasgow laine at Coppull, Lancashre.

    I will not go into details as it was a harrowing sight, but the following night the reporting officer, a young constable, reported unfit for duty and was signed off work for over two weeks.

    As far as I can see this was a typical case of PTSD effecting one person, but not others who also saw the same sight.

    It is locked in my memory and I can never forget this incident.

    Sorry for blabbing on, but stress effects everyone in different ways. Some show it and others do not.


    Regards
    Tom
    Tom, never feel you have to apologise mate. You werent blabbing on and thanks for the input.

    I agree with the above by the way
     
  11. Heimbrent

    Heimbrent Well-Known Member

    [...] IT is also fair to say that PTS was unknown in my service days. Seriously we never heard of such maladies..... Bomb happy for sure..But for many of us old uns it is a new phenomena.. [...]
    Here as I am sure Ron and Tom will agree .it did not exists then... If it did, it was not recognised.

    What is now known as PTSD isn't a new phenomenon, like was stated above, it has, well, always existed. But it wasn't recognised as what it is until after WW2. It used to be called shell shock, battle fatigue, combat stress, now it's called PTSD. And (like was also mentioned before) there are different reasons for it, not just war experience.

    *edit* Btw, you don't have to suffer from PTSD or been at war to research and know about it.
     
  12. Formerjughead

    Formerjughead Senior Member

    Former jughead -
    well no I didn't call anyone diseased - I merely referred to the fact that we are aware of both mental and diseases of which we can do little - possibly I might have used the term "conditions" but I didn't ....so sue me...

    I am not going to sue anyone; but, it is that perception (of PTSD being a disease) that prevents people from seeking help.

    and yes we are also aware that others rather than our declining little group of veterans on this forum took part in WW2

    You missed my point or I failed to make it clearly. When you and your peers returned home you were surrounded by other men who had similar experiences. It was not uncommon to meet a stranger and be able to openly discuss(share) your experience. The same can not be said for conflicts since then, there are just simply not enough persons involved.

    as we all saw many of them - and we also saw many of them being killed and maimed but not too many go down with what you call PSTD as we "just got on with it" - or as some would have it - "a stiff upper lip" which has often been derided by some who don't have that capacity !

    You are confusing PTSD with: Shell Shock, Battle fatigue and the likes, or at least that is how it appears to me. My step father went through the Italian campaign and into southern France (36th ID) before being wounded. On more than one occaision we found him lying under a car in out driveway shooting Germans out of the walnut tree with a golf club. An uncle who was in the Pacific (25th ID) had several holes in his back yard that he would sleep in. Neither of these men "cracked" under pressure.

    As I factually recall - your Gen. Patton didn't quite understand that illness either when he slapped the two GI's in Sicily during WW2 for being cowards - and was consequently fired - but then that will now upset Slipdigit as erroneous Anti-American - heigh ho...can't win tonight !
    Cheers

    Again the condition addressed by his exaltedness Gen. Patton was not PTSD, it was Shell shock and/or battle fatigue.

    Most people who are affected by PTSD do carry on with their lives, just as I have done. I have never curled up in a shivering ball unable to cope with the situation. If anything those of us with PTSD perform better under stress and are less likely to back down and cower.
     
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  13. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    You missed my point or I failed to make it clearly. When you and your peers returned home you were surrounded by other men who had similar experiences. It was not uncommon to meet a stranger and be able to openly discuss(share) your experience. The same can not be said for conflicts since then, there are just simply not enough persons involved.


    And there endith the lesson !
     
  14. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    STONE ME....
     
  15. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Capt Bill -
    would agree that medics have a very difficult time of it in dealing with the after effects of conflict and many of them avoid PSTD for one reason or the other - I would imagine in the same way as I and - obviously Sapper- Ron -Gerry- Niccar- also escaped that trauma - my own exposure to that malady might have been in hauling some of my friends out of charred and burnt out Churchill Tanks on occasions and I would also agree that to have your very best friends body so badly burned to be unrecognisable but his position in that Tank determined his identity was not all that easy......

    Heimbrent -
    One of the most vigourous habits during the WW2 conflict was that of smoking - we had free issues of cigarettes - Monty would hand them out every time he met a crowd of soldiers- because of that he was even more popular - he - and we were completely ignorant of the fact that it has since been blamed for much damage to lungs with C.O.P.D.- Emphasema - Chronic Bronchitis etc and in many cases for Cancer itself - Similarly with PSTD - as Sapper keeps on pointing out -but very few are apparently reading - we were completely ignorant of that fact - even the great Gen. Georgie Patton - as I pointed out earlier to an American poster - was ignorant of PSTD when he slapped two GI's for being cowards in Sicily- he was fired - not because of his ignorance of PSTD but for the plain fact that OFFICER"S - N.C.O.' DO not slap other ranks !
    Now why should we research these maladies - they are in all the papers TV etc ...
    Cheers
     
  16. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Jughead -
    I am truly sorry that you and your relatives suffer from whatever you want to call the malady you have - and as I pointed out - WE can do nothing about it and thus have to leave this and any action to experts who have studied and are involved in the treatments available
    Cheers
     
  17. Formerjughead

    Formerjughead Senior Member

    even the great Gen. Georgie Patton - as I pointed out earlier to an American poster - was ignorant of PSTD when he slapped two GI's for being cowards in Sicily- he was fired - ...

    BATTLE FATIGUE and SHELL SHOCK are not PTSD. I don't know how to make it any more clear.

    You guys are wrapped around the axle on what you percieve as a weakness experienced in combat, it is not.
     
  18. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Jughead -
    speaking for myself - the other veterans of WW2 can handle things for themselves very well - BUT - I am not wrapped around anything to do with whatever ails you - and as I wrote in my last message to you - I am extremely sorry for whatever it is that you are suffering from and is being treated with a view to a cure - if there is such a thing....
    Cheers
     
  19. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran Patron

    Formerjughead

    Re:
    You guys are wrapped around the axle on what you percieve as a weakness experienced in combat, it is not. .


    Funny............ never been wrapped around an axle before.

    Thought we were in enough trouble for claiming our apparent immunity to PTS.

    Ah me ! ............... back to the couch for my afternoon nap.

    Ron
     
  20. Heimbrent

    Heimbrent Well-Known Member

    Heimbrent -
    One of the most vigourous habits during the WW2 conflict was that of smoking - we had free issues of cigarettes - Monty would hand them out every time he met a crowd of soldiers- because of that he was even more popular - he - and we were completely ignorant of the fact that it has since been blamed for much damage to lungs with C.O.P.D.- Emphasema - Chronic Bronchitis etc and in many cases for Cancer itself - Similarly with PSTD - as Sapper keeps on pointing out -but very few are apparently reading - we were completely ignorant of that fact - even the great Gen. Georgie Patton - as I pointed out earlier to an American poster - was ignorant of PSTD when he slapped two GI's for being cowards in Sicily- he was fired - not because of his ignorance of PSTD but for the plain fact that OFFICER"S - N.C.O.' DO not slap other ranks !
    Now why should we research these maladies - they are in all the papers TV etc ...
    Cheers

    I'm not really sure what you're trying to say with this - I don't understand it linguistically. Where do the ciggies come in? And what does the fact that PTSD etc are allegedly all over the media have to do with the question of research?
     

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