My God I hope you mean the wooden or steel kind!:wink: As opposed to "stool sample" types? Geez, now we're doing poo fling fights like monkeys at the zoo? Would that be at 20 or 30 paces? Depending on texture I suppose. Man I gotta see this one....
Sorry Geoff, for trying to get this thread back on track but I think we all need to leave our cosy little backroom of the pub and have a big fight in the car-park. Once we've done that we can come back in & start again. If it's going to be like this just say the word!
Would POW's under the Japanese (Germans/Italians left out for many reasons) be at a greater risk of PTSD? Growing up in the 50's/60's I had involvement with a few families whose father was a POW of the Japanese. Many of these did not have years of continual battle. Many were captured early at Singapore. Their family life was horrific with the fathers mood swings, gentleman one minute, brutal another. Could this have been PTSD? Cheers Geoff Most assuradly, family turmoil and severe mood swings are very indemic of PTSD, a cornerstone if you will. Oddly enough Australia is very proactive in addressing PTSD in it's WW2 vintage veterans. One thing that I have noticed, in dealing with veterans, and others, that have been diagnosed with PTSD, is that humility plays a big part; whereas more brash personalities don't often display the overt symptomoloy. One of the most common comments that I hear is that there is a feeling that they didn't do enough. This same humility will cause the same person not to externalize their experience in a healthy manner. A more brash personality will have no problems exteralizing their experience, and even embelishing it, often they will revel in the attention they receive from sharing their hardships.
In the words of a marine guy on here...Ithink jugs...at least on this site...the last paragraph ....we on here resemble that remark.
Thread exhausted.....? I don't think so. If anything the contention in this thread has only proven to illustrate how little is known about PTSD. All it takes is one person clicking this link and realising that PTSD applies to them; then everything is worth while. OF all the things that we discuss on this forum this is the one that can not only change opinions; but, change someone's life. I am willing to take a repeated beating over this, even if it means that my service is being maligned in the process. I don't care, no one should have to subject themselves, and their family, to the turmoil that PTSD creates. There is help and there are people that listen; often that is all it takes.
In the 60's there were many well known local alchoholics in our small city. Maybe 6 or 7 who were easily recognizable and always found around the downtown wine store or begging money in various locations. These 'winos' as we called them were often targets of derision by the local teenagers. In my youthful ignorance I remember making a disparaging remark about them one day to my father. He was a policeman at the time. As it turned out, he knew each of those men on a first name basis and over the course of time got to know their individual stories. He described many instances of getting them off the streets to sleep it off in a cell. Like most cops he was pretty hardened by the people he had to deal with and never showed much sympathy to the perps. So, it was out of character as he corrected my impressions of the 'winos' and it was clear that he had a soft spot for them. Each, as it turns out, was a ww2 veteran and my father admonished me for being critical. I remember his remark, "if you knew 1/10th of what these men went through, you would keep your mouth shut". He never said much more about it except that he really treated them well under the circumstances. In the sixties they were just regarded as drunks but I have often wondered if that was only the symptom.
In the sixties they were just regarded as drunks but I have often wondered if that was only the symptom. To say that all drunks have PTSD and that everyone with PTSD is a drunk would be a sweeping allegation; but, there is often a corollary between drinking/ substance abuse and PTSD. There are patterns of emotional and physical self destruction that manifest in PTSD. The patterns are more pronounced in accordance to the severity of the PTSD.
As a policeman in the 60s and 70s I often came across tramps and people of no fixed abode with a variety of problems. These could be drink, drug or inability to be part of what we would call normal society. Apart from tresspass ,in the hunt to find a warm safe spot for the night,or making the place look untidy they caused only minor problems. If you took your time they would tell you a little of their lives and show you papers from a previous life. Some had held positions of authority which they had to leave when their problems became too large. A number were ex soldiers whose family life had disintegrated. It became apparent that the whole family had cut them adrift and the reason was an admitted tendency to violence.. All people are different and so one would expect people to handle stress and for it to affect them in many ways. It is good that people are now prepared to listen. Arkrite....at the present of sound mind....and I have a letter to prove it....no joke.
I don't think so. If anything the contention in this thread has only proven to illustrate how little is known about PTSD. All it takes is one person clicking this link and realising that PTSD applies to them; then everything is worth while. OF all the things that we discuss on this forum this is the one that can not only change opinions; but, change someone's life. I am willing to take a repeated beating over this, even if it means that my service is being maligned in the process. I don't care, no one should have to subject themselves, and their family, to the turmoil that PTSD creates. There is help and there are people that listen; often that is all it takes. I agree FormerJuggs, especially with the last line. That's all it took for me anyway.
To say that all drunks have PTSD and that everyone with PTSD is a drunk would be a sweeping allegation; but, there is often a corollary between drinking/ substance abuse and PTSD. There are patterns of emotional and physical self destruction that manifest in PTSD. The patterns are more pronounced in accordance to the severity of the PTSD. Certainly, in the cases I described, there is no way to know at this point which of them might have had PTSD or not. There could have been a number of other factors, including heredity. Strikingly though, all were combat infantrymen. Many individuals are programmed to self destruct, trauma or no trauma. You see it every day. But assuming the veterans I recall did have PTSD, then they are as much a casualty as anyone returning with missing limbs. To volunteer for your country, give away your youth and endure the unendurable was more than enough sacrifice. It seems particularly cruel and an especially bitter irony to survive those incredible odds only to lose the remainder of your life to afflictions like PTSD.
Certainly, in the cases I described, there is no way to know at this point which of them might have had PTSD or not. There could have been a number of other factors, including heredity. Strikingly though, all were combat infantrymen..... Many individuals are programmed to self destruct, trauma or no trauma. You see it every day.. Heredity plays huge part, the old Nuture vs. Nature. Most products of an unstable home life have a predisposition and are more vulnerable to myriad mental health issues, especially PTSD. That vulnerability and predisposition to PTSD is increased exponentialy if one of the parents has PTSD. One very noteworthy instance is Lewis B. Puller Jr. How would you have liked to be that kid growing up? But assuming the veterans I recall did have PTSD, then they are as much a casualty as anyone returning with missing limbs. To volunteer for your country, give away your youth and endure the unendurable was more than enough sacrifice. It seems particularly cruel and an especially bitter irony to survive those incredible odds only to lose the remainder of your life to afflictions like PTSD. Again, it's a very troubling issue. As we have all seen in this thread there is a stigma attached to being diagnosed with PTSD especially among veterans, nobody wants to hit with the lable.
I bet this will make interesting ready: WO 219/942 Neuro-psychiatric casualties 1944 Apr.-Nov. Taken from a North West Europe Series so these will contain pre and post Operation Overlord casualties and possibly Market Garden.
One only needs to look to Rourkes Drift vc holders..one in particular for evidence of its existance thru the ages.
"The scouts were brewing tea in a nearby cow byre. They watched me without expression as I briefed George Langstaff and two other men. They knew I had at least glimpsed the valley in daylight and so was the logical one to lead the patrol. What they did not know was that the mere prospect of descending into that ominously shrouded valley was paralyzing me. I was convinced that death or ghastly mutilation awaited me there. The certainty was absolute! The Worm that was growing in my gut told me so." Farley Mowat And No Birds Sang An excellent read and an articulate examination of battle fatigue from one who lived it.
I am not a medical person,but i have no doubt from what i have read of the condition, that my dad had post traumatic stress. I have been following this thread with interest. Dad was a drinker from a very young age,indeed drank through the war and REALLY got going after WW2. I always thought that alcohol play a big part in his condition. Unfortunately in the early 60`s this condition was not at all understood,so he was diagnosed with Schizophrenia and given too many shock treatments(not too pleasant in the 1960`s) By the time the medico`s had finished with him large chunks of memory was gone and he was a real mess. I have met and talked with a handful of vets and their familys and have been told of similar experiences by wives and children,many of the PTS issues revolved around drink. What is often overlooked is the impact that this condition has on the family,we lost our major breadwinner at a crucial time in our lives(dad never held a proper job after getting ill) and it felt like the war for us was casting a very long shadow. I never have "cried in my beer" over it and in fact i think a bumpy start in life has set me up to deal with lifes brickbats. But to say the condition does not exist is just naive.
Theobob But to say the condition does not exist is just naive. I see that there are now 358 responses to the original posting. Do you think you could give us the thread number of the particular posting that made the above sweeping statement ? Many thanks Ron
I think they may be getting confused from my post Ron. Where I bring in its existance thru the ages, not though its existance as a condition. But then again I know nothing and admit as much.
