Possible Chindit - can anyone help please ?

Hi

I'm a new member and am still finding my way around the fora, so apologies if I have posted this request in the wrong place - mods, do feel free to relocate it if necessary.

I am attempting to piece together the service history of 3522469 Pte F [Frank] Gill, enlisted late-'20s into the 2nd. Manchester Regt.. His medal group is here:



The India General Service [Burma] is for his Manchester's service. At some time in the '30s he transferred [still Pte] to the 2nd. King's Own R, the GSM [Palestine] is for that service. And this is where it all gets tricky....

The LSGC is for his later service in the Royal Engineers [Sapper]. But, depending upon when he transferred into the RE [and I don't know when], it is impossible to determine what regiment his WW2 awards apply to. If it's the King's Own, then the Burma Star may indicate his service with The Chindits. But he lacks the Africa Star and the 2nd. KO spent a while in N Africa/Egypt after Palestine. Consequently, he may have transferred to the Sappers earlier in the War. Gill retained his service number throughout his army career.

Is there anyone out there who could offer information or advice as to how I might be able to nail down this last piece in his jigsaw ?

Thank you for taking the time to read this.

Tony

 

Perhaps instead of piecing his service record - obtain the real thing - Request records of deceased service personnel - GOV.UK

TD

 

Thanks for the prompt reply TD.

Gill was born in 1909 so he certainly will be deceased by now. My problem is that I do not know where or when he died and, in any case, the 25 yr rule may apply. I'll continue searching for a death notice however.

The only very recent new information that I have concerns his dob [04/11/09] and the date of his posting to the KORR from the Manchesters: 23/10/40 - although his Palestine GSM [confirmed on roll] shows that he must have been with the KORR a little before that date. It's the date of the transfer to the Sappers which will solve this riddle.

Thanks again.

Tony

 

Can you provide any more information? Do you know where he was born or may have lived at any time? Did he marry, name of wife, any children? Have you any idea when or where he died? At present there are rather too many Frank Gills born 1909 to select the correct one.

Can I ask how you got his dob? Any snippets may help.

 

There are also some interesting middle names that would help narrow the field:

Examples:
Frank Eyland Gill

Frank Roylance Gill

As Tony56 says any little bits of info all help to piece the jigsaw (hopefully)

TD

 

Thank you all for your replies and I do appreciate your interest. This is what I have so far:

• DOB - 4th. Nov 1909 - came from summary of his entry in the Enlistment Book provided in e-mail by Tameside Library. Place of birth was given as [possibly] Ashton under Lyne. However, there is also a reference to St. Peter's Parish, Hollingwood, Lancs. I think this is an error and it should read Hollinwood ? Hollingwood is in Derbyshire. The parish reference might be a christening/baptism event ? I have also found F Gill birth entries on Ancestry for the 4th. Nov. 1910. It does not help at all not knowing his parent's names.

• Then there's his name ! The rolls for the first two medals simply refer to F Gill. A [poor] photocopy of his release book [from RE - as Cpl., 5th. Feb '49] gives no DOB but his name as Frank Gill. In the Enlistment Book he is Francis Gill. That may be his proper forename with him preferring to be called Frank. He had no middle names that I am aware of.

• Any addresses? The details of a discharge address from the Enlistment Book are all that I have and are possibly inaccurate. Anyway, for what they are worth, this is a verbatim account: '...2 Montfield?? Terrace or Hollingwood...'. That is the exact form of their provision to me. Unfortunately, the copy of the 1950 RE letter forwarding his LSCG fails to include his address other than 'Mr F Gill'.

• Marriage? Again, absolutely no idea. Children ? Possibly, but I don't have any details.

Thank you all for your interest once again.

Tony

 

Tony,
There is a possibility that he enlisted under age. He may have added a year on to his actual date of birth?
I have found this with several men I have researched.
Guy

 

Trouble is if I search for a Frank or Francis Gill born 1900 +/- 5 years the result at the moment is zero

Hmmmmm

TD

edited to add:
Getting tired - should have said that was only in Lancashire

BUT:
Name: Frank Gill
Registration Year: 1898
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district: Bradford
Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding
Volume: 9b
Page: 118

 

As you have Ancestry have you seen Frank Gill, born 4 Nov 1910, baptised 1 Jan 1911 at Sadler St United Methodist Free Church, Middleton, Lancs.

(Edit - if he changed his year of birth he may have kept same day and month)

Parents James and Ada of 3 Dyson Sq
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=JiA1946&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&db=manchesternonconformist&so=2&pcat=BMD_BIRTH&gss=angs-c&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&gsfn=frank&gsfn_x=0&gsln=Gill&gsln_x=1&msbdy_x=1&MSAV=1&msbdy=1910&msbpn_

You can find them in the 1911 Census.

As you may know death registers have a date of birth for deaths after 1969 but I cannot find him using his birth date. From what you say he died after 1950, so perhaps between then and 1969.

There is a death in Q3 1957 Manchester, there is also a corresponding Probate stating he died 5 September 1957 and his widow was Ida.

 

Thank you all once again. I've spent a few more hours on Ancestry too and got nowhere ! However, with regard to his age, I'm inclined to accept his DOB [+/- a year] as the photo below [he in middle] shows a young man and the photo will be late'20s or possibly early'30s: he being between say 19-20 and 25-25. A Victorian DOB would, I think, show a much older man.



The 2nd.KORR disbanded in 1948 and he left the Army in Feb. '49. He might have transferred to the Sappers between those dates. However, this still leaves the problem of no Africa Star - only one day's service was required between June 10 '40 and May 12 '43 to be eligible and the 2nd. were in that area for a fair time - mid-June '40 to early March'42. So, unhappily, the Chindit connection is becoming rather more unlikely.

Possibly this is one which will never be completely unraveled until the WW2 records become freely available in many years time? Or, of course, proof of decease can be found.

Tony

 

Tony 56 - have just seen your post. I did see this a couple of day's back but will revisit now. Thank you.

Tony

 

Tony 56 - I have downloaded and looked more carefully at both the baptism record and the 1911 Census certificate. If this is the man, they seem worthy of further thought although there are ambiguities: the baptism took place in the Parish of Middleton [Manchester]. Frank's father is described as a 'motorman' on the baptism record, with a Middleton address. On the census return [five months after the baptism], he is still a motorman, working on the council tramways, but with a Blackpool address. That in itself is not a problem but he states that at the time of the census he had only two children, a boy and a girl, 4 and 6 respectively. No Frank, who would have been alive and well at that time. No infant is shown. An oversight? Or just a closely similar record ? Hmmmmm!

Tony

 

Are you looking at the correct census? Try this:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2...dy=1910&msbpn_=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

 

Spot on ! My census return also showed a motorman and an Ada !!!! What a coincidence.

Thanks very much.

Tony

 

Tony, I have some further information on the Frank Gill (post #9) who died 5 Sept 1957, wife Ida, the Probate record gives his address as 41 Dene Road, Manchester. In the 1939 Register they are at the same address, and their details are:

Frank Gill, dob 17 Aug 1910, occupation schoolmaster.
Ida Gill, dob 16 Jul 1909.
Both are recorded as being involved in ‘Evacuation duties’.

Perhaps this would rule him out as being the one you are after.

 

I fear so ! But thank you - I appreciate your interest. From memory, wasn't he the one who left around £5000 to his wife and a friend ? I did wonder if this would have been too large an amount for my Mr Gill, just six years out of the ranks.

Anyway, I'll keep hunting !

Best

Tony

 

Francis Gill Born 4/11/1910
Died : 4 Q 1993 Nothumberland West

 

Thank you for the above Guy and apologies for the late response.

I note the DOB and it looks promising but I think, given the recurring confusion between 'Frank' and 'Francis', this is going to be extremely difficult to ultimately unravel. It's quite likely that both names are correct, with Francis being his given name and Frank being his preference. Conjecture though, obviously, but not improbable.

I'm not giving up on this one though, particularly as within the papers which came with the group are a lot of cuttings and reports of Kohima and the associated area. I've still one or two extremely tenuous irons in the fire but may just have to accept this for the nice group that it is with a 'probable' rather than 'proven' Chindit connection.

If anyone else wishes to contribute observations to assist with my quest please do: should I make further progress I'll post on here.

Thank you all once again, your input has been really appreciated.

Tony

 

Re looking at this there are 2 Gills born on 4/11/1910

Francis Gill in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Francis Gill
Birth Date: 4 Nov 1910
Date of Registration: Nov 1993
Age at Death: 83
Registration district: Northumberland West
Inferred County: Northumberland
Register Number: 39B
District and Subdistrict: 6804
Entry Number: 73

OR

Frank Gill in the Manchester, England, Non-Conformist Births and Baptisms, 1758-1912
Name: Frank Gill
Birth Date: 4 Nov 1910
Birth Place: Manchester, England
Baptism Date: 1 Jan 1911
Baptism Place: Middleton, Lancashire, England
Church: United Methodist Free Church, Sadler Street
Father Name: James Gill
Mother Name: Ada Gill
This one fits with info re James & Ada, Manchester

Personally I think there is only one answer

There is another possibility to the 1957 death - there is one in 1955

Frank Gill in the England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1966, 1973-1995
Name: Frank Gill
Death Date: 7 Sep 1955
Death Place: Manchester, Chester, England
Probate Date: 21 Dec 1955
Registry: Manchester, Chester, England

131 Lapwing Lane, Didsbury - total amount £1274

Although this one does not show a date of birth, therefore seeing it will be the only way to rule it in or out

TD

 

I'm also pretty sure that the second one is the one TD, I've already printed a copy of the baptism record for his file [together with the 1911 census which shows the same home address - Dyson Square].

Agree your comment re. the death notice. geographically it fits but so young...

Thank you again: this is all so helpful.

Tony