Planned use of the atomic bombs in WWII.

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by OpanaPointer, Mar 24, 2018.

  1. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer Pearl Harbor Myth Buster

    Preliminary post.

    The ABC-1 Allied staff talks established the "Germany First" principle of Allied action. The policy was confirmed at the Atlantic Conference and announced at Casablanca.

    Given the nature of the declaration the use of the atomic bombs on Germany, had they been available, would have been a given.

    Further information when the coffee contacts the grey matter.
     
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  2. Blutto

    Blutto Banned

    A long stretch to claim that atomic bombs would have been automatically used on Germany. I suggest that those present in the 1941 conference would have been largely oblivious to the possibility of a nuclear weapon, especially when the first survey of the Los Alamos test site for suitability didn't occur to around October 1942. Had they been aware of the research going on, they would have had no comprehension of the effects of such weapons.

    I'm sure the tabloid newspapers would love to run your "Given the nature of the declaration the use of the atomic bombs on Germany, had they been available, would have been a given." statement.
     
  3. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer Pearl Harbor Myth Buster

    Well, gee, I guess I've been put in my place.
     
  4. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer Pearl Harbor Myth Buster

    Nothing to add? Okay then. The ABC-1 talks were conducted by the highest level of US and British military officers. Both the Manhattan Project and "Tube Alloys" were known to the top officers.

    You stopped there, ignoring the next two items, which were meetings of HEADS OF STATE, presumably men with knowledge of the above.

    As to whether the bombs would have been used in Europe, the ABC-1 talks determined that "
    • The Atlantic and European areas were the "decisive theater" and as such would be the primary focus of US military efforts, although the "great importance" of the Middle East and Africa were noted."
    I don't know why you skipped two thirds of the information I provided. It really wasn't that long.
     
  5. Drayton

    Drayton Senior Member

    The meetings were HEADS OF GOVERNMENT, not Heads of State - the same person in the case of the USA, but certainly not in the case of the UK.
     
  6. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer Pearl Harbor Myth Buster

    I should know better than to post sober. Off to find more Speyside!
     
  7. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    I would add that the atomic bomb development intelligence would be only known to personnel on the basis of a need to know.Even WSC complained to FDR that information to him on the project progress was lagging.

    When the cat was out of the bag,William Penny the leading British atomic scientist of Tube Alloys and G/C Leonard Cheshire of Bomber Command were invited to fly as observers in an observation plane when the Nagasaki bomb was dropped....the British were not allowed to witness the Horoshima bomb dropping

    Interestingly that Harry Trueman was not aware of the Manhattan project until FDR died suddenly in April 1945 and he being the new President was briefed on the subject by Groves in late April 1945.
     
  8. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer Pearl Harbor Myth Buster

    Were Penny and Cheshire on Tinian when Enola Gay took off on Aug. 6th?

    The previous vice presidents hadn't been briefed on "the gadget" either, nothing special that Truman wasn't. The fact that Wallace was replaced by Truman on the 1944 shows the wisdom of that policy. A disgruntled VP might have blabbed about the bomb out of spite.
     
  9. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    The British were kept out of it as what might be regarded as being the junior partner.... it was a totally American operation from the creation of Tibbets No 509 Composite Group in late 1944 to the bombing.The British observers were at Tinian when the first strike was conducted but were not allowed to fly by Tibbets. Some diplomatic exchange may have passed between the two governments for them to fly the second strike being regarded as official observers.

    The difference between Truman and Wallace was that in the summer of 1945,the project was likely to come to fruition,the bomb group had been formed and were working up to drop an atomic bomb.Until FDR died there had been no intelligence,as appropriate, put in place for the successor who would have the responsibility of sanctioning the use of the bomb.

    A good insight to the target selection,preparation and atomic bombing of the two targets here.

    Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

    I'll have to have a good look at "Enola Gay".It's an interesting reading from the point as I remember the disharmony between Tibbets and Lewis as to who would be the commander of the aircraft....Tibbets,threw rank, took the initiative and quickly named the aircraft after his mother.
     
  10. Blutto

    Blutto Banned

    Actually I didn't skip it. My issue is your presumptive statement regarding deployment of nuclear weapons as though it was fact. The punctuation didn't help either.
     
  11. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    Amazing letter. Truman was president for two weeks before he learned about the atomic bombs.

    upload_2020-4-24_9-11-50.png
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2020
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  12. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    I think an important point is being missed. The matter at issue was not who do we drop it on first? but do we drop it? By 1945 it was clear that Germany was on her last legs and that she would soon be defeated without the need to drop the bomb. By July 1945 it appeared that Japan would only succumb after a long and very bloody campaign stretching into 1946 and dropping the bomb could obviate the need for this. (Yes I know that it could be argued that the Soviet invasion would have done/did do the job but I don't think that Truman believed that at the time).
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2020
  13. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    There was never a question of not using them. They weren't available by the time Germany surrendered but there was no question that Japan was going to get them if they didn't surrender.

    I knew Truman wasn't in the loop when he was vice president but was surprised he didn't learn of them for 13 days after FDR's death.
     
  14. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    and there you have it, but if they had had it available in say April 1945 I doubt they would have dropped it on Germany - no need. As they only had two they would be reserved for where they were needed. After all they had never dropped one so didn't know how reliable they were - the only one tested was a tower mounted static installation.
     
  15. JITTER PARTY

    JITTER PARTY Well-Known Member

    Even had it been possible, you'd have to seriously doubt that the Americans would have found it desirable to drop atomic bombs on white Europeans.
     
  16. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    There is no why of knowing in hindsight. If Germany was still on a roll in 43 or 44, say if Russia had collapsed, and we had one available before an allied invasion, I bet we would have used it.

    If tens of thousands of Americans were killed and word got out that we had it available and didn't use it after spending $2 billion on it ($23 billion today) they'd be no one in authority left standing. That's just my opinion, of course.
     
  17. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    The World Set Free - Wikipedia

    For all the what ifs Hitler's Germany would have used it. I suppose? Plus the awareness of the lingering effects of radiation were perhaps less well understood.

    Added to which devastating conventional bombing and fire bombing had already been seen.

    Partly the hindsight is perhaps because the allies "used it first" - an alternative is that the allies could have kept it as a threat and only threatened to use it in retaliation for continuing war. However Japan was warned, and presumably Germany would have been warned too...
     
  18. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    A study was undertaken as to using it in support of an invasion. This assumed that Allied troops could advance through ground zero within 24 hours without any form of protective gear!
     
  19. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

  20. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    They didn't have as good an understanding of fallout in 1945 as we do now.
    upload_2020-4-24_18-4-27.png

    General Grooves and Robert Oppenheimer at the Trinity site. Grooves has paper booties on but I don't see any on Oppenheimer. Their pants cuffs are touching the ground too. Who knew?

    upload_2020-4-24_18-1-5.png
     
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