Personal letters from Spanish Civil War

Discussion in 'Prewar' started by amberdog45, Jan 12, 2013.

  1. amberdog45

    amberdog45 Senior Member

    The letter from the 22nd is a good read.
     

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  2. bexley84

    bexley84 Well-Known Member

    Another excellent set of letters - I liked the references to the Catholic herald..the gap between ideals and reality was a chasm, of course, but still it's extremely moving to read a contemporary account.
     
  3. amberdog45

    amberdog45 Senior Member

    The next couple of letters and a picture of Bill I'm assuming is taken is Spain.

    I wonder how Bill felt towards the Catholics after the war. In my tree search I found it interesting that both his parents were Catholic and had a catholic marriage, yet they never had any of their (seven) kids baptised!

    Both Bills parents and his younger brother Bernard are all buried in a Church of Scotland cemetery in Rattray, Blairgowrie. I have always found it odd that Bill is buried in the new cemetery in Blairgowrie. His father & Bernard are in one plot and his mother in another. Given his obvious closeness to her I would have thought he would have opted to be buried with her.
     

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  4. bexley84

    bexley84 Well-Known Member

    Thanks again.

    Looks like the "censors" were on the job here...

    By they way, any idea why your great uncle was named William DIETER Gilmour ?

    NO PARASAN.

    best,
     
  5. amberdog45

    amberdog45 Senior Member

    Bill’s maternal grandmother, Ellen Sweeney, from Coatbridge married a German acrobat/contortionist called Bernard Dieter from Prueben, Germany who was touring Scotland with a circus called The Spanish Circo.

    It’s quite a tragic tale really. They married in Glasgow in 1863, had a son Constantine in 1864 in Aberdeen, but he died a few months later as the circus moved through Fife.

    Catherine (Bill’s mother) was born in 1865 while the circus was visiting Edinburgh, but her mother, Ellen, died of typhus 8 months later in Edinburgh Infirmary.

    Catherine’s father, Bernard, seems to have stayed with the circus but it got broken up/sold off and he appears to have fallen on hard times and died of dysentery in 1875 in a poor house in Manchester!

    Catherine didn’t know her father Bernard was dead, as she declared him still being alive on her marriage certificate to Bill’s father in 1888.
     

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  6. spconnolly007

    spconnolly007 The 'Shiny Seventh'

    Really enjoyed catching up on these letters, great stuff.
    'buen companero'
    Sean.
     
  7. zahonado

    zahonado Well-Known Member

    What a great set of letters. it is amazing to think the International Brigades went because of their political convictions....perhaps the only war this was the case. A privilege to read them. Thank you for posting them even though its not WW2!
     
  8. bexley84

    bexley84 Well-Known Member

    Another excellent read - the "enthusiasm" clearly is dissipating. not surprisingly after having been wounded and then not being allowed to go home.

    What would people (including myself) go out and "fight for" today ?..This is a good question.

    My great grand father, the docker, fighting for his 'tanner'. in 1889... my grandfather, the GWR railwayman, withdrawing his labour in solidarity with the miners in 1926...my father, the Hawkes shop assistant, joining (ok, forced to join) the call to arms in 1939..it's really quite humbling in comparing this type of man with the current mindset and outlook..
     
  9. amberdog45

    amberdog45 Senior Member

    Thanks for the kind comments and I’m glad you are enjoying them as much as I did when I first received the copies. I realize they’re not strictly WW2 (and hopefully I’ve gotten away with it putting them in the ‘all other stuff’ thread section) but it does lead on to WW2 and I can’t help but feel if other countries had come to the aid of Spain, then perhaps WW2 may have been averted.

    But instead they were left on their own and Hitler (and possibly the Italians as well if I remember correctly) had a great time bombing the hell out of the Spaniards to test his own air forces capabilities. I suppose the Spaniards were used as Hitler’s dress rehearsal for WW2.

    You’re right as well Richard. Bill is getting despondent in his letters. This one from December isn’t too down hearted in fact I think it’s my favourite. There is sadly only 3 more letters to go. I haven’t read them for a while but I think the last 3 show Bill at his lowest awaiting his return to the UK.

    I’m filled with pride for these men and women that came from so many different corners of the globe to fight for the down trodden Spaniards. In answer to your question Richard, if I didn’t have a 7 year old to look after, I think you may very well have found me flying over to Syria to help those poor people fight Assad. I had thought the very same thing, what would it take these days to see an out pouring of foreign nationals coming to the aid of one country?

    Syria has been the conflict that has stirred that kind of emotion in me. But I would never have thought that way before I received these letters. I’d never have believed I’d even think of laying my life down like that, but Bill’s an inspiration and I’d happily help oust that tyrant Assad. Let’s face it the UN is never going to sort it out. It’s all just an unspoken “treaty of non-intervention”, just like previous politicians inflicted on the Spanish (oops, silly me I forgot Syria doesn’t have the oil and mineral wealth that’s worth defending these days, the world just seems to be saying we don’t give a hoot about you ordinary Syrians). Sorry, it just makes my blood boil that we can sit back and watch that happen to a nation. Rant over!:mad:
     

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  10. spconnolly007

    spconnolly007 The 'Shiny Seventh'

    Without the SCW there mat not of have been no WW2? As you mention, the non-Intervention policy would have given Hitler the confidence to continue his aggressive expansion without any fear. The fact that the Germans and Italians used Spain as a practice ground for what was to come must of put them on the front step when the war in Europe broke out? Your point is extremely valid Richard as to the mindset of todays working class. The dumming-down of political activism over the years is upsetting to say the least. Whether you agreed with Bill's action is irrelevant, its his devotion to a cause that you find wanting in todays generation. I will print off Bill's letters for future reading as they are inspirational and I thankyou for taking the time to upload them.
    Regards,
    Sean.
     
  11. bexley84

    bexley84 Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the continuing notes. Excellent, as always.

    I would presume that Hitler was out for a fight whatever..but could, no doubt, have been challenged in 1936 over the Rhineland, which may have delayed things.

    From a distance of 75 years, you can understand some element of the "political" appeasement carried out by the governments of France and Britain (if they actually had been linked to effective planning for any future conflict), but of course, a swathe of the influencers in Britain were "ideological" appeasers...that being said, you can't forgive the humanitarian impact of the democracies turning a blind eye to the war in Spain.

    In my view, it's not that there is a modern day "dumbing down" as such, but I think a tendency for the wish for a homogenisation of views, whether through voice, written word, TV, or internet. "Contrary" views are always being shouted down until they are "proved right." List your own plentiful examples...the current mob's vandalism without much of a national wide protest is one that comes to mind.

    Last one : I've noticed that the name checks are uncanny, I had an aunt/uncle called Ellen and Bill, and one each of my brothers and sisters is called Bernard and Catherine..

    best
     
  12. amberdog45

    amberdog45 Senior Member

    Just one more letter to post after these. I've also included an extract from an MI5 (or was it MI6? file) kept on some of those that went to Spain. Don't know why they had reason to believe Bill was killed in Mar 37? But you also see them noting the date of his return to the UK.

    Richard, that is strange about the names. I've loved the name Bernard since a child and was chuffed when I found one in my tree. Unfortunately Bills eldest sister Ellen eludes me. She's the only one out of the seven of them I haven't been able to trace, at least after the 1901 census when she was 12. I'm not giving up finding her as there are always more and more archives coming on line.

    I had to laugh after my rant about Syria, especially with Israel wading in that very same day:rolleyes:
     

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  13. bexley84

    bexley84 Well-Known Member

    Bill seems a pretty level headed sort of bloke..amazing really. Smoking "weeds", though, may well ultimately really do your head in.

    While the Secret Services were on the case here, the gentry of the country were gallivanting around Germany having tea with Goebbels and Hitler..

    It's also so nice to see that MI5 now has a web page..https://www.mi5.gov.uk/home/mi5-history/mi5-between-the-wars/the-soviet-threat-between-the-wars.html

    The machinations of the Middle East continue to be rather Middle Eastern - Sykes, Picot, Balfour to name but three have a lot to answer for..

    best
     
  14. amberdog45

    amberdog45 Senior Member

    This is Bil'ls last letter that I have. It would have been nice to see others taking him to the end of the war. Also attached is his discharge paper and a photo supplied by the FaceBook page Scotland and the Spanish Civil War.

    I'm posting a request this week to find out where he was on the 1939 identity register. I'm hopeful it may reveal what his occupation was in '39 before I send off for his military records.;)
     

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  15. amberdog45

    amberdog45 Senior Member

    Received the extract from New Register House, Edinburgh from the 1939 ID Reg but doesn't show Bill in active service then. He is living at 66 Houston Street, Glasgow in '39. I was somewhat surprised at this as I assumed he would have stayed with his mother in Blairgowrie after the Spanish Civl War. His occupation is listed as Builders Labourer-Public Works-Heavy Worker. When Bill passes away in 1972 his occupation is retired labourer. Right, I'm away to find the link again to obtain his army record in Glasgow to see if he did eventually serve in WW2.
     
  16. bexley84

    bexley84 Well-Known Member

    ..Right, I'm away to find the link again to obtain his army record in Glasgow to see if he did eventually serve in WW2.

    You may be some time, then...actually did you happen to see the Martin Sheen "Who Do You Think You Are?", which was shown on the BBC this week - his uncle Matias Gonzalez was imprisoned by the Fascists for fighting against the rebellion in July 1936.

    iplayer link

    BBC iPlayer - Who Do You Think You Are? USA: Series 3: Episode 1

    best
     
  17. amberdog45

    amberdog45 Senior Member

    Thanks for the link Richard. I hadn't caught that episode. I'll get it downloaded. Hope all is well with you.
     
  18. nrsmith

    nrsmith Junior Member

    Can someone explain to me what this Scots Commi rant has to do with WW2?
     
  19. amberdog45

    amberdog45 Senior Member

    nrsmith, all I call honestly say is I don't give a hoot what you think pal.B)
     
  20. spconnolly007

    spconnolly007 The 'Shiny Seventh'

    Can someone explain to me what this Scots Commi rant has to do with WW2?
    Read a couple of history books and you might grasp the connection!!
     

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