Pearl Harbor

Discussion in 'War Against Japan' started by Dpalme01, Nov 2, 2004.

  1. sol

    sol Very Senior Member

    Maybe this:

    The Panay Incident, December 12, 1937

    Today in 1937, the USS Panay was attacked and sunk by Japanese aircraft while at anchor in the Yangtze River near Nanking, China. While this attack did not directly lead to war between Japan and the United States, it did much to damage relations between the two nations and was one of the first steps in the long road which led to Pearl Harbor.

    The USS Panay was a gunboat less than 200 feet long and displacing 474 tons. She carried a crew of 59 officers and enlisted men, two 3" guns and 8 machine guns. She was built in China for the specific purpose of patrolling the Yangtze River as part of the United States Navy's Asiatic Squadron. The Yangtze Patrol protected American citizens and property on the river and in the towns and cities nearby. By 1937, there had been a continual US naval presence on the river for nearly 80 years.

    To understand why the Panay was where she was when she was, it is necessary to go back to the mid-19th century and the end of the Opium Wars in China. With the Chinese Empire in ruins, Great Britain and other Western powers, including the United States, were granted unprecedented access to the Chinese market. "Unequal treaties", as they have been called, were signed by the Chinese and established treaty ports where foreigners could live, work and trade without interference from the Chinese government. In addition, any foreign citizen living in China was subject to the laws of his nation, not those of China. By the time of the American Civil War in 1861, US merchant ships were sailing up and down the Yangtze along with their counterparts from Europe. Piracy was a problem on some parts of the river, so the Navy began patrolling as far as 1,000 miles inland. As the situation in China began to deteriorate during the last decade of the 19th century, the Navy stepped up operations on the river.

    Business was booming on the river by the 1920's, but trouble increased as well. Attacks on shipping by pirates and warlords was on the rise, but this gave way in the early 30's to a new menace: communist armies that took control of the north bank of the middle section of the river. American commerce began to recede from the area, believing that the risks to lives and property were no longer worth the reward. Following the Battle of Lugou Bridge in 1937, Japanese forces moved to occupy Shanghai and Nanking, two of the largest cities on the river.

    The gunboats of the Yangtze Patrol were ordered to evacuate American civilians and most of the embassy staff in Nanking in November, 1937. The Panay was to stay behind to provide protection for those few who remained behind. They too, left the city and came aboard the gunboat on December 11 as fighting came close to the city, necessitating the Panay's movement upriver. She was joined by a small civilian fleet of three tankers. It is important to remember that the United States and Japan were not at war; in fact, the American naval commander in the area informed his Japanese counterpart of the location of the Panay and the tankers both before and after their move.

    On December 12, Imperial Japanese Navy aircraft were ordered by the local Army general to attack any vessels on the river upstream of Nanking. The Japanese Navy knew the location of the Panay and her civilian charges, so they asked for confirmation of the order. Confirmation was given and so at 1:27PM local time, the Panay was attacked. She sank two and a half hours later, taking three members of the crew with her. She never returned fire. 43 sailors and five civilians were injured. The survivors were picked up by the civilian tankers and the British gunboats Ladybird and Bee.

    The Japanese government took full responsibility for the sinking of the Panay and paid over $2 million in restitution to the US government in April, 1938. Tokyo maintained that the sinking was an accident, although many members of Congress thought otherwise. Relations between the two nations, already tense over Japanese aggression in China, steadily began to erode.

    As word of the attack became known to the outside world, letters began pouring into US embassies all over Asia. Almost all of them were from Japanese citizens expressing their regret over the incident. Many sent money, so much that the disposition of it became a problem for Washington. While some of the younger letter-writers appear to have copied a master form letter, most of the correspondence was genuine. In the years that followed, these expressions of humanity from one society to another would be forgotten.
     
  2. sol

    sol Very Senior Member

    I don't believe that this was ever the case. We were on our own in the Pacific and, thankfully, we managed to get out of a terrible jam without any help.



    Many Australian and New Zealend warships also served in Pacific during 1942 and later. HMS Victorious was loaned to USN in late December 1942 and served under name USS Robin. Also don't forget Commonwealth troops who had fought in New Guinea and Solomon Islands. Chines tied large numbers of Japanese troops in Chine, just like British in Burma. Of course US gave far more troops in Pacific then others but nobody can't say that US fought alone in Pacific.
     
  3. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Old Hickory Recon

    yes, it was the USS Panay Incident. I was just offering it so I could pull on Za's chain.
     
  4. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    What chain, I upgraded to a lever operated model some 30 years ago. :lol:

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Kruska

    Kruska Junior Member

    ....

    "Yes, we were in a pretty bad mood already, so when Adolph started throwing rocks.... "

    Who is Adolph?

    Regards
    Kruska
     
  6. Kruska

    Kruska Junior Member

    What chain, I upgraded to a lever operated model some 30 years ago. :lol:

    [​IMG]

    Wow - this is....f..fantastic - one can actually sit whilst .......

    Regards
    Kruska
     
  7. Bob Guercio

    Bob Guercio Senior Member

    What chain, I upgraded to a lever operated model some 30 years ago. :lol:

    [​IMG]

    Something is missing!

    I don't see any magazine rack or bookcase!

    Bob Guercio
     
  8. Bob Guercio

    Bob Guercio Senior Member

    Hi Guys,

    I'm reading the book "I Saw Tokyo Burning" by Robert Guillian and would like confirmation on something that I just read but had never heard before.

    He claims that Yamamoto wanted a more ambitious strike on Pearl Harbor than simply a Naval strike; Yamamoto wanted to completely take over the island by landing troops. Guillian makes the claim that the Army, General Tojo, and part of the navy was against this plan. The Army wouldn't give him troops for this and he had to settle for a less ambitious plan.

    I had never heard of this before; is it true?

    Bob Guercio
     
  9. Formerjughead

    Formerjughead Senior Member

    Seeking Confirmation
    Hi Guys,

    I'm reading the book "I Saw Tokyo Burning" by Robert Guillian and would like confirmation on something that I just read but had never heard before.

    He claims that Yamamoto wanted a more ambitious strike on Pearl Harbor than simply a Naval strike; Yamamoto wanted to completely take over the island by landing troops. Guillian makes the claim that the Army, General Tojo, and part of the navy was against this plan. The Army wouldn't give him troops for this and he had to settle for a less ambitious plan.

    I had never heard of this before; is it true?

    Bob Guercio

    Dangerously close to a "What If" I would almost classify it as a "Yeah But".
    You are traversing a slippery slope
     
  10. Bob Guercio

    Bob Guercio Senior Member

    Dangerously close to a "What If" I would almost classify it as a "Yeah But".
    You are traversing a slippery slope
    I'm not asking "What if Japan had invaded Hawaii"

    I only want to know if that is what Yamamoto wanted to do as part of the Pearl Harbor attack.

    I'm asking a genuine World War II history question!

    Bob
     
  11. Formerjughead

    Formerjughead Senior Member

    I'm not asking "What if Japan had invaded Hawaii"

    I only want to know if that is what Yamamoto wanted to do as part of the Pearl Harbor attack.

    I'm asking a genuine World War II history question!

    Bob

    Sory I blew up

    I imagine that the idea of a Hawaiian invasion was tossed around momentarily and was immiediately dicarded. Yamamoto was a great tactician and knew that a thousand small slices will do more damage than one gaping wound.

    WW2 was won, and lost, through logistics. The Imperial War Panel knew that if Hawaii was lost that operations would be moved to the west coast of the US. They also knew that Japan had a finite amount of resources and could not win a prolonged war with US involvement. They did not have the capability of bombing the west coast and the US had the capability to conduct operations without Hawaii.
     
  12. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER Patron

    Dangerously close to a "What If" I would almost classify it as a "Yeah But".
    You are traversing a slippery slope

    The question is not even close to a "What if" or a "Yeah But".

    Bob has simply asked a question based on a quote in a book and is seeking clarification. This deserves a reply not a response from your crystal ball as to how WW2 would have finished.

    "End of story, drop it and let it go" is not how discussion on a forum takes place.
     
  13. Formerjughead

    Formerjughead Senior Member

    The question is not even close to a "What if" or a "Yeah But".

    I heartily disagree

    Bob has simply asked a question based on a quote in a book and is seeking clarification. This deserves a reply not a response from your crystal ball as to how WW2 would have finished.

    Sorry

    "End of story, drop it and let it go" is not how discussion on a forum takes place.

    Removed it.

    Okay?
     
  14. Paul Reed

    Paul Reed Ubique MOD

    We are not too keen on What Ifs... just so you know.
     
  15. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Yamamoto was a great tactician and knew that a thousand small slices will do more damage than one gaping wound.

    Ah, young grasshopper, but a few wise men have been known to contest that... ;)

    Also they would believe that old Isoroku's sphere lay more in the field of strategy than tactics but...
     
    Formerjughead likes this.
  16. A-58

    A-58 Not so senior Member

    This subject was discussed in detail over on ww2f recently, and it got pretty "hot and heavy" at times. It was a "what if" type of discussion there, and the subject matter, no matter how it is presented naturally seems to belong to the realm of the "whatiffers."
     
  17. Dave55

    Dave55 Very Senior Member Patron

    I was just talking to my mom about how she heard about Pearl Harbor. She had told me before that she was at Sunday School but I asked her again today to tell me about it. She said that some adults interrupted the class and took them all home in their cars. The kids asked why and were told that their parents would tell them. When they got home, my grandfather and grandmother were out in the yard and asked why she was home early. They hadn't had the radio on yet that day. They went in the house and heard the news. Mom says that her mother started crying because they knew her brother (mom's uncle) was at Schofield Barracks in Honolulu, which the radio said was also attacked. They got a message from the Red Cross about two weeks later saying that he was ok.

    That's him with my mom in my avatar right before he left for Pearl Harbor. He was supposed to come home on Dec 17 but they didn't see him for four years.
     
    Tricky Dicky, CL1 and canuck like this.
  18. canuck

    canuck Token Colonial Patron

    I guess the equivalent event for our generation was the assassination of JFK. I was barely six years old but remember that day vividly.
     
  19. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    [​IMG]He remembered that moment [Pearl Harbor] in later years as the end of one existence and the beginning of another[​IMG]


    Japanese planes bomb Pearl Harbor
    Japan has launched a surprise attack on the American naval base at Pearl Harbor in Hawaii and has declared war on Britain and the United States.

    The US president, Franklin D Roosevelt, has mobilised all his forces and is poised to declare war on Japan.

    Details of the attack in Hawaii are scarce but initial reports say Japanese bombers and torpedo-carrying planes targeted warships, aircraft and military installations in Pearl Harbor, on Oahu, the third largest and chief island of Hawaii.

    News of the daring raid has shocked members of Congress at a time when Japanese officials in Washington were still negotiating with US Secretary of State Cordell Hull on lifting US sanctions imposed after continuing Japanese aggression against China.




    BBC ON THIS DAY | 7 | 1941: Japanese planes bomb Pearl Harbor
     
  20. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer Pearl Harbor Myth Buster

    Yamamoto wanted a raid on Pearl Harbor. The Kogun agreed on the stipulation that the Nagumo Kido Butai be returned to the Home Islands as soon as possible to work up for defense of the new territories acquired. There was never any realistic plans to take Hawaii.
     
    CL1 likes this.

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