Panzer division - number of tanks?

Discussion in 'Axis Units' started by Chris C, Jan 20, 2025.

  1. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    Hi all,

    I am looking for this information with regards to understanding the degree of depletion of 47th Panzer Corps during Operation Veritable in February 1945.

    The Canadian "Victory Campaign" says that the corps only had 90 tanks at the start, and I think later on when they attacked at the Goch-Calcar road, they were down to - or only attacked with - two dozen Panthers and Jagdpanthers. (And the fact that they were attacking with tank destroyers was I think a sign of how badly off they were?)

    What was the nominal strength of a Panzer division, in terms of tanks? What percent of 'nominal' was 90?
     
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  2. Bedee

    Bedee Well-Known Member

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  3. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    Theoretical organisation of a 1944 Panzerdivision was 1 Regiment with 2 Abteilungen to 4 companies with 22 tanks each. Total 176 tanks. Also a Panzerjägerabteilung with 28 Stugs (or Jagdpanther I guess?)

    https://blog.sturmpanzer.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Panzer-Division-1944-Gliederung.jpg

    XXVII. Panzerkorps had 116. and Panzerlehr, so theoretical 352 tanks and 56 Stugs, plus 15 PzGrenDiv with theoretical 42 Stug and 28 Panzerjäger IV.

    Total in theory 478 tracked AFVs in the tank or Stug groups.

    All the best

    Andreas
     
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  4. Juha

    Juha Junior Member

    The theoretical figures were just theoretical, one can that e.g. the fact box of the Battle of the Bulge wiki article. Those were the figures of the Pz-Divisions refitted for the "crucial" main offensive in the West.
    According to Panzer Truppen Vol 2 by Jentz 116. Pz. Div. had 11 (2) StuGs, 6 (2) Pz IV lg, 7 (4) PzIV/70, 10 (5) Flakpz and 32 (8) Pz V. 15. Pz.Gren.Div ha 14 (8) StuGs, 3 (2) Pz IV lg, 21 (10) PzIV/70, 2 (0) Flakpz on 15 March 1945. The numbers in brackets were the numbers of operational vehicles.
     
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  5. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    I understand there were no panzer divisions defending the Reichwald at the start of the battle,.

    The main AFV equipped unit in the area was 655 Heavy Anti-tank battalion with one company of Jagdpanthers and two of JagdPanzer IV. Add to this whatever SPs were in the anti tank battalions.

    The Jagdpanthers probably came from 655 which was badly chewed in the battle.
     
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  6. ltdan

    ltdan banana counter

    In 1945, there were target strengths on paper and actual strengths in reality
    Despite all the meticulousness, the higher levels always left open where the required material was actually supposed to come from
    In fact, the types of tanks used often did not even correspond to those listed in the charts

    Attached is a document of misery in which the reduction of the Panzerdivision Type 44 (an already thinned out PzDiv) is shown
    This was followed by Panzerdivision Type 45 and then “Kampfgruppe” Panzerdivision 45, whereby the target strength of the latter was only a non-binding recommendation
    T78R621_Seite_0709 Notsoll.jpg
    The NARA file also lists various strength reports and the allocations for tanks from November 44 to March, if that is of interest to you - but now I'm too tired to read through the 1000+ pages.
     
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  7. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    Yes indeed. But the question was explicitly about the theoretical figures.

    All the best

    Andreas
     
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  8. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    Right, the panzer divisions were in the reserve and actually down by Venlo. (As I understand it, that is where the Germans thought 21AG would attack.) They were committed to counterattacks - IIRC at least one around Kleve, which got hammered by British artillery, and another against the Canadians at the Goch-Calcar road.

    Interesting to know about 655 - I didn't think it had anything as good as Jagdpanthers for some reason.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2025
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  9. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    Right, I was trying to understand "what percentage of their theoretical strength were they now down to?"

    Now that I think about it, I don't know whether the book I was referencing was including self-propelled guns in the total. If we assume it was only tanks, that would still put them at something like only 1/4 of "full" strength. (90/352)
     
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  10. ltdan

    ltdan banana counter

    As a representative example the sHPzJAbt 655:

    The s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 655 was reorganized to Pz. IV/70(V) and Jagdpanther in the autumn of 1944
    28 Pz. IV/70(V) were sent to the Abteilung on 28.11.1944 by an Heeres-Zeugamt (H.Za.), and taken over by the 1st and 3rd companies on 29.11.1944.
    3 more Pz. IV/70(V) for the AbteilungStab followed on 7.12.1944.
    The total of 14 Jagdpanther for the 2nd Kp. were dispatched by a H.Za. on 24.11. (5 pieces) and 24.12.1944 (9 pieces). In addition, 2 Bergepanther were sent on 6.12.1944.

    For furter details, a look at a certain military forum is helpful, which I can warmly recommend (Well done, Stolpi!):
    VERITABLE 1945: 15th Scottish & 43rd Wessex Divisions in the Reichswald battle

    According to a POW Int.Report, no. 3 Kp. arrived at Materborn with 10 operational PzJgIV, three were in workshops and one was abandoned en route. In the battle for Cleve three machines of the 3. Kp. were abandoned either from mechanical defect or battle damage and one was KO'd.
    Of the Jagdpanthers of the 2. Kp. two broke down en route to Cleve with track trouble. The 53rd Welsh Div accounted for two other Jagdpanthers; one was KO'd by a M-10 Achilles of the 6th AT Regt RCA at the Dammershof on the northern edge of the Reichswald Forest on Feb 11th (see picture 1. below), next day, the 12th, another one was KO'd by a Churchill tank of the 9 RTR at MR 898518 also on the egde of the forest (see picture 2. below?). A third Jagdpanther was lost in late afternoon of the 11th, put out of action near Gut Ranzow by the tanks of the 4/7th Dragoons in support of the 214 Bde . By 26 Feb 45, according to 3rd Cdn Inf Div Intell Sums, armoured strength of the 655.s.Pz.Jg Abteilung had dwindled to one Pz Jg IV and six Jagdpanther operable.

    Chris, if you want to know reasonably accurate information about German units there: Intel Reports often knew more about them than German staffs at the time




     
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  11. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    As the original query asked about the authorised strengths, this is my understanding of the later evolution - the way the numbers spiral downwards in such a short period is quite informative in itself I think.

    Nov 1943 - Panzer Regt at full strength was authorised 200 medium tanks. Five per Pl, with four Pls per Coy, and four Coys per Bn for 88. Then a Recce Pl of five and three more for Comms in Bn HQ (one each forward control, rear link and air liaison) for 96 in a Bn, then two Bns in a Regt, with the same five Recce and three comms at RHQ, for 200 even.

    Apr 1944 - the fG (freeing Organization) had the same basic structure, however the fourth Pl in each Coy was 'dismounted' and only activated if tanks were available (and there were only 10 crewmen in the fourth Pl so it required reinforcement from the Supply Coy to man anything above 17 tanks). Discounting the fourth Pl of each Coy takes the Regtl total down to 160 tanks.

    Nov 1944 - the revised fG series KStN, which allowed for a Coy of 17 tanks, that could be reduced to 14 (deleting one per Pl). On that basis a Regt could go down to 136 tanks (Bn HQs and RHQ still shown with eight tanks), and drop even further if the fourth Coy was deleted to circa 108 tanks (which a year previous was closer to a Bn).

    Apr 1945 - Panzer Regt slated to become a Mixed formation, merging with the Armoured Pz Gren Bn. Tank element reduced to a single Bn, with two tanks in Bn HQ, and four Coys, each of ten tanks, so 42 in total for the Regiment. Very much like the Panzer Brigades of summer 1944, which themselves looked very much like a Soviet Tank Brigade, consisting of a very small Tank Bn and small Motor Rifle Bn. (Edit - it was actually two Tank and one Motor Rifle Bn in the early Red Army Tank Bdes, altered to three Tk and one Motor Rifle in late 1943, though each Tank Bn only had 21 T-34s by that time).

    Gary
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2025
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  12. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    Thanks Gary.

    On the Red Army, my general approach is to look at the nomenclature and assess them as a level down. So 1 Red Army tank bn of 21 tanks = 1 German tank company of 22 tanks (including lights). That seems to get reasonable results across formations.

    All the best

    Andreas
     
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  13. Juha

    Juha Junior Member

    Yes, you are right, but because with the Heer the universal Pz.Div TOEs were really theoretical, more like a "what we wish to have" type papers as Itdan says with more correct words in the message #6. So I wanted to put forward more real world figures. And that was true for the beginning, e.x. in the West in 1940, if there was a big tank battle, one must know not only the number of Pz.Divs participating but also which ones. There were Pz.Divs which had 90 - 98 gun tanks (Pz IIIs, IVs and the Czechs) (1., 2. and 10.), 64 - 68 gun tanks (3. and 4.), 8. Pz.Div had 84, 9. only 56 on 10 May 1940. Of those with Czech tanks two had 154 - 159 gun tanks (6. and 8.) and the 7. had 110. Those with fewer gun tanks had clearly more German light tanks except 9. which had significantly less tanks than the others.
     
  14. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

    Quite right, not only were the tank units lower in strength, but they also were bedevilled by fuel shortage. This was especially true for the Rhineland battle.

    As I wrote in the thread quoted above by Itdan :

    "The balance of the tanks of the 116th Panzer Division, owing to lack of fuel, had not yet managed to reach the new assembly area of the division at Mönchengladbach, but were still stranded in the Eifel after their commitment in the Ardennes Offensive. Therefore, the 116. Pz Div initially could field only a handfull of Panther tanks and Sturmgeschuetze, organized into a composite battlegroup Brinkmann, numbering no more than 8 - 12 tanks. In order to provide for additional armoured strength, the PzJg IV and Jagdpanthers of the s.Pz.Jg.Abt. 655 - that is to say, those that were still operational - were attached to the 16.Pz Division. By 12 Feb, 6 out of 14 Jagdpanthers of the s.Pz.Jg.Abt. had already been lost."

    On estimates of the actual tank strength of 116. Pz. and 15. Pz.Gren.Divisions in the counterattack of Feb 12th, 1945, an attempt to regain Cleve and the Materborn ridge by 47 Pz Korps, see: VERITABLE 1945: 15th Scottish & 43rd Wessex Divisions in the Reichswald battle

    Re Panzer Lehr attack against the Goch-Calcar road, I wrote:

    "Of the two Panther and one Jagdpanther Kompanien, each with a nominal strength 14 tanks, even with the added support of 8./Pz Lehr Rgt 130 (a mixed company with Mk IV and V tanks) only 22 tanks were available for the attack with KG Hauser, about half of these were lost during the battle"

    See: VERITABLE 1945: the Canadian finale (Moyland Wood & Goch-Calcar road)


    But this is all about the actual numbers on the battle field, not the nominal TOE as asked for.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2025
  15. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    Here is one knocked out by a 17 pounder M10 SP of 56 battery RCA outside the Dammershof.
    [​IMG]
     
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  16. steelers708

    steelers708 Junior Member

    In reality there's no such thing as a theoretical Panzer Division, nor is there a nominal strength for a Pz Division.

    Even though Kriegsgliederung and K.St.N. tables were issued Panzer Divisions did not automatically go over to using them, Pz Divisions would only change their authorised organisation when specifically ordered to which is why there is so much variation regarding the number of Abteilungen in a Pz.Regt. and the number of medium and light kompanien in each Abteilungen etc etc.

    Other anomalies are that not every Pz division received a Panther Abteilungen and those that did didn't always have them as most Panther Abteilungen were used as Heerestruppen or served with other Pz Divisions, not all Panzer division received a Panzerjager Abteilung and then late in the war came the introduction of the 'Gemischte' Abteilungen where some division were authorised to have both tanks and Stugs/Jagdpanzers in their Abteilungen and then you have those divisions that for various reasons were stronger still, e.g. Pz Lehr and the GD.

    If you want to know how many tanks a division had then you need to search out the relevant monthly reports for those divisions as they will tell you what tanks they were authorised and how many they had at the beginning of each month, along with these if you have the monthly delivery reports you can see what divisions received what new tanks etc each month.

    On the 8th of February 1945 this is the status of the 3 relevant divisions based on their reports of that day:

    15th Pzgr Division.

    It was authorised to have 3 Pzkpfw III, 42 Stugs and 31 Jagdpanzer IV.

    It actually had 4 Pzkpfw IV and 15 Stug in the Pz Abteilung and 13 Jagdpanzer IV and 10 Panzer IV/70(V) in the Panzerjager Abt.


    116th Panzer Division.

    It was authorised 78 Pzkpfw IV, 73 Panthers and 21 Jagdpanzer.

    It actually had 6 Pzkpfw IV, 38 Panthers and 17 StuGs in the Panzer Abt. whilst the Panzerjager Abt. had 8 Jagdpanzer IV and 10 Panzer IV/70(V).


    Pz Lehr Division.

    It was authorised 42 Pzkpfw IV, 38 Panthers and 21 JagdPz IV.

    It actually had 23 Pzkpfw IV and 29 Panthers in the Pz. Abteilung and 17 Panzer IV/70(V) in the Panzerjager Abt.
     
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  17. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    I suppose if no theoretical value existed, then one could make a comparison with an average based on the divisions at the start of the Ardennes offensive or in France on 5 June 1944. Just to establish some sort of comparison of how much weaker they were, if that makes any sense?
     
  18. steelers708

    steelers708 Junior Member

    I forgot to include sPzjager.Abt.655 above so here's what it reported on the 8th February 1945,

    Abteilung Stab Kompanie had 1 Jagdpanther and 2 Panzer IV/70(V)
    1.Kompanie had 13 Panzer IV/70(V)
    2.Kompanie had 13 Jagdpanther and 1 Panzer IV/70(V)
    3.Kompanie had 14 Panzer IV/70(V).

    In relation to losses sufferred by the unit in comments above on the 8th March it reported the following:

    Abteilung Stab Kompanie nothing shown
    1.Kompanie had 10 Panzer IV/70(V)
    2.Kompanie had 11 Jagdpanther
    3.Kompanie had 9 Panzer IV/70(V).
     
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  19. ltdan

    ltdan banana counter

    I wouldn't get my hopes up, if only because the conditions can hardly be compared in a representative way, IMHO there are far too many different factors for that
    There is only one rule that runs through all operations since Normandy:
    The deployment of forces was inadequate for the operational objectives, and the resulting losses were disproportionate to what was achieved (if anything was achieved at all)
     
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