Paint your wagon! (german AFV WW2)

Discussion in 'Modelling' started by Tiger AusFe, Sep 10, 2009.

  1. Tiger AusFe

    Tiger AusFe Junior Member

    I have been trying to look into ways of improving my models lately and one of the ways I thought would help would be in the painting.

    So if anyone can add to this please feel free to do so, after all, we can only improve!

    Obviously how you paint your model really decides whether it will live or die, realism is only a paint colour away. For example, you have King Tiger painted fararri red and title it "Russian front 1945" it is not going to matter one bit if you have all the tiny details correct, the model will be judged by the colour of the paint.

    This got me to thinking about the paints issued by the various hobby suppliers themselves. If you look at your painting instructions on model kits you will always see that they recommend various colours from various manufacturers. Why is this? O.k, So we understand that Tamiya would recommend Tamiya paints, why would Revell recommend Humbrol? Or Dragon recommend Gunze Sangyo?

    Puzzling one at that!

    Another point is this; where do the companies get their interpretation of colours from?
    A startling fact is that many get their ideas from Museums and from photographs, matching up the colour from Film or photos. Now anyone who knows anything will know that you cannot use a photograph of a tank to justify you saying that this is the real colour or what colour was what in Black and white films or photos.

    It seems that the only correct way to interpret the colours is to read the "Heer memorandum" that gives orders in regards to colours that should be used and when! But then again, this does not say what shade RAL 8017 was!

    What makes it more confusing is that Tamiya once visited the Patton museum in America and got permision to take of the overspray the museum staff had put on to an SDKFZ 251. They found that the Dunkelgelb was 5 different shades! So Tamiya based their XF60 (Dark Yellow) on the mid shade.

    So theoretically the Tamiya shade of Dunkelgelb should be the most valid?

    But it gets worse!

    Historically RAL 6003 (OliveGrun) Ral 8017 (Braune) and RAL 8002 (Signalbraune) were supplied in 5 kilo tins in paste concentrate for dilution by tank crews.This could be acheived with water, Oil or Petrol, indeed in one case urine! The final intensity of colour depended on the dilution, so RAL 6003 (olivegrun) could appear almost black if undiluted and pea green if diluted too much.

    Another factor to consider aswell is that many paints are based on 1/1 scale colours, ie, the real thing. Many modellers will dilute the colour with as much as 25% white in order to lighten the colour and make it more scale effective.

    Most German AFV's were fitted with compressors so that spray guns could be used to paint the vehicle. So most German vehicles were Spray painted in the field. (Though the Ambush scheme was applied by hand.)

    Although all model companies have advised what colour paints should be used, and whos to use, only two companies have researched the subject thouroughly and from the right source. These Companies are Gunze Sangyo from Japan and also Hannants from England.

    In May 1991 both pooled resources and approached the RAL Deutches Institut Fur Gutesicherund Und Kennzeichung e.V. (loosely translated "The German institute of Quality control and Identification) It was founded in 1925 and and is funded by the German chemical industry. This is the equivalent of the British Standards or the U.S Federal Color Standards.

    Not only did Hannants ad Gunze receive comprehensive information on the chronological introduction and deletion of second world war colours but were also given authentic paint chips.

    From these Chips Hannants produced the full 10 shades. Gunze a few less.

    Funnily enough "Denkelgelb" the most important colour 1943 onwards does not have an official RAL number! The paint chip supplied by RAL is often claimed to be too dark or too olive.

    So, if you are interested in painting your wagon the correct shades for an added air of authenticity here are the colours and Hannants codes in brackets) for you:

    RAL 7016 Anthrazitgrau (X802) Used by Luftwaffe ground forces (Herman Goerring division)

    RAL 7008 Khakibruan (X804) Used by Afrikacorp and in crete 1941. No Official RAL description of colour. Used in conjunction with RAL 8000

    Ral 7027 (x809) Used by Afrikacorp after 1941. Again no official RAL description of colour. used in conjunction with RAL8020.

    RAL 6003 Olivgrun (X806) Used in conjunction with RAL 8017 and RAL Dunkelgelb.

    RAL 8002 Signalbraun (X801) used in conjunction with RAL 7021 especially before 1939.

    RAL 8000 Grunbraun (X803) Used by Afrikacorpand in crete 1941. No official RAL Description of colour used in conjunction with RAL7027

    RAL 8020 (X808) used by Afrikacorp after 1941. No official description of colour used in conjunction with RAL 7027

    Dunkelgelb (X805) used as standard colour from Feb 1943. No official RAL number, used in conjunction with RAL 6003 and RAL 8017

    RAL 8017 Braune (X807) Used in conjunction with RAL 6003 and Dunkelgelb.


    I hope this helps.
     
  2. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    I don't really hold with much colour agonising, particularly as I believe the RAL system has changed a couple of times over the years.

    For myself; if it looks right, then fair enough...

    That effect of scale really counters any too slavish devotion to 'correct' colours too. The 'correct' colour applied to a 72nd scale kit nearly always looks way too dark - the smaller the scale, the more I tend to lighten the shade to get a satisfactory feel. 'Olive Drab' on allied kits is a good example; without a certain amount of drab yellow added (depending on scale) it always just looks wrong.

    If you're painting the real thing I can see the point in serious RAL matching attempts, but not for kits. If it ever emerges I'd maybe buy the Panzertract on colour out of curiosity, but I reckon it's more art than science to make a nice looking model.

    ~A
     
  3. Capt.Sensible

    Capt.Sensible Well-Known Member

    Personally, I would be happy if any model I put together and painted did not look as if it had been done so by a colour-blind, palsied five year old. I have yet to exceed this high standard....
    :D
     
  4. Tiger AusFe

    Tiger AusFe Junior Member

    Personally, I would be happy if any model I put together and painted did not look as if it had been done so by a colour-blind, palsied five year old. I have yet to exceed this high standard....
    :D


    You have been looking at my models! Damn you sir!

    As I said in my post, it is something for those who wish to go as mental as possible with paints, but we would all agree that we do go for a degree of realism..........No one here has painted a King Tiger red......Have they?:huh:

    I do try to get as much accuracy as I am able to, including the use of Photo etched parts. But I can only go so far!:mad:
     
  5. Capt.Sensible

    Capt.Sensible Well-Known Member

    You have been looking at my models! Damn you sir!

    As I said in my post, it is something for those who wish to go as mental as possible with paints, but we would all agree that we do go for a degree of realism..........No one here has painted a King Tiger red......Have they?:huh:

    I do try to get as much accuracy as I am able to, including the use of Photo etched parts. But I can only go so far!:mad:
    Tee hee!

    Your models look very fine to me. I've just had a thought: if you really wanted to, then you could do a Abbott SPG or T34-85 in pink in a modern street setting with young people and all sorts of disreputable clubbers ligging about.....
     
  6. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    I don't really hold with much colour agonising, particularly as I believe the RAL system has changed a couple of times over the years.

    For myself; if it looks right, then fair enough...
    ~A

    I go along with if it looks good, is usually is.

    In the field, variations make for many modelling possibilities. I just try to get mine to look authentic as I can never get it perfect:)

    Regards
    Tom
     
  7. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Favourite paints anyone?

    I tend to Use Tamiya for the base colours, and have expanded into Vallejo for detail stuff.
    I did prefer the way Tamiya sprayed - but thanks to a cock-up by Capt. Sensible :D I came into possession of a fair few more of their 'Model Air' airbrush-ready colours, and they're rather convenient... though I still think Tamiya are better for a truly flat finish.

    Can't stand enamels... I avoid where I can.
     
  8. Bodston

    Bodston Little Willy

    Favourite paint. That is tough. I am still a bit of a novice when it comes to the airbrush, but I do like Hannants Xtracrylix. For the British vehicles no one else comes close to the correct tones. Still partial to Games Workshop paint too. I'm not bothered about a dead flat finish, I quite like a few rubbed shiny patches.
     
  9. Paul Pariso

    Paul Pariso Very Senior Member

    Favourite paints anyone?

    I tend to Use Tamiya for the base colours, and have expanded into Vallejo for detail stuff.
    I did prefer the way Tamiya sprayed - but thanks to a cock-up by Capt. Sensible :D I came into possession of a fair few more of their 'Model Air' airbrush-ready colours, and they're rather convenient... though I still think Tamiya are better for a truly flat finish.

    Can't stand enamels... I avoid where I can.

    Can't stand enamels??!! That explains a lot! :lol:
    Seriously though, I find that a combination of all paint types works best.
    I tend to paint all uniforms, vehicles, equipment etc in enamel. For any flesh painting, be it on a human or animal, I find that oils work best as they dry with a slight sheen and are easily worked to blend and feather colours together. I use acrylics or watercolours for things such as washes and weathering as they can be diluted to the 'N'th degree depending on the application required.:)
    All the best,
    Paul...............
     

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