Pacifists?

This is a copy of the email that I sent. Don't usually bother with these people as they only have one point of view......their own!

"Dear Jan and Members of the Peace Pledge <st1>Union,
</st1><o></o><o></o><o></o>
Your disrespect to the fallen of Bomber Command has also reached <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1>Australia</st1></st1:country-region>.<o></o>
<o></o>
I respect your position to push for peace and no more war however that “Utopia” forever eludes us. Your objection to the memorial of those gallant members of Bomber Command, who gave their lives to defeat the expansion of Nazism and Fascism in <st1>Europe</st1>, is disgraceful.

This affirmative ad hoc action by you on behalf of your organisation is an attempt to demean the memory, not only of those brave souls who fought against the tyranny of the Axis forces but also a slight to their family members and those that lived the war in Nazi Europe.
<o></o><o></o>
There is no argument from me that living is peace is preferable to war however denigrating those people who went to war sixty seven years ago to fight that just cause is a terrible mistake on your behalf and that of your organisation. A terrible mistake, because you are doing it under the shroud of protection that these people gave their lives for.

"Lest we forget" is not just for those who fought and those that paid the ultimate price, it is for all victims of war.

Let us not forget the carnage, let us not forget the perpetrators of war, and let us not forget those who fought to give us the freedom that we enjoy today.

Memorials do not glorify war; they remind us of the futility of war.<o></o>
<o></o>
Your organisation must move forward without looking for victims from the past. Your collective voice must be aimed at the politicians and decision makers of tomorrow, not yesterday, for they are the ones who shape the world on our behalf.<o></o>
<o></o>
If the masses do not want war, and fervently demonstrate their abhorrence to it, some change may occur, but sadly, there will always be war. <o></o>
<o></o>
Hopefully we will be able to call on warriors like those in Bomber Command et al to protect our freedom."<o></o>
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</o>

 

So well put Spidge, far better than I ever could. Thank you.
This whole business has saddened me. Being from Lincoln and growing up in this county has always given me pride. The old airfields dotted around the countryside still serve as a reminder to the bravery of a few young men. We owe them more than we could ever repay.

A veteran stood outside a pub in Fiskerton as a Lancaster flew over from the BBMF. A man next to him said, "I bet that brings back some memories." The veteran replied, "Yeah, of being s**t scared."

Thanks everyone for restoring the faith.
May the sound of Merlins forever reverberate across this patch of sky.

 

Just want to ask if a mod can put this thread in the right area for future reference. My fault. Sorry.

 

I am glad I found this piece I did on Australians in Bomber Command. Just to enforce that their comments were not just demeaning to the RAF.

Australia's contribution in the air throughout the war was another proud moment in our history. While only a small nation of 7,000,000 in 1939, these volunteers helped to free Europe from tyranny.

Dedicated to the aircrews of Bomber Command, and to all those who did not return, who served in the forefront of the war against the enemy for six long years, in which the squadrons were never withdrawn from operations.
An immense debt of gratitude is owed to the ground crews who through thick and thin in all kinds of weather strove to keep aircraft operational. They shared with the aircrews all the dangers of fire, explosions, enemy incursions, and the dangers associated with a Bomber Command squadron.
In the first 3 months after the invasion of Europe, losses by allied Air Forces exceeded those of the ground forces.

Australians

These young Australian men, some of the cream of their generation, were all volunteers who although not their war were prepared to go to the other side of the World to fight for freedom and for the right of other people in other lands to enjoy the freedom which we Australians value so very highly.

Whilst only 1% of Australia’s total armed Forces, the RAAF incurred 20% of total casualties.

Killed in Action……………….......51%
Killed in Crashes……………........9%
Seriously injured in crashes....3%
Prisoners of War…………….......12%
Evaders…………………………..........1%
Survivors unharmed…………....24%

3,500 RAAF men died while operating with RAF Bomber Command. 460 Squadron RAAF alone lost 1,018 men, and 200 aircraft in three years of operations.

A look now at one of the most decorated of the RAAF squadrons to participate in Europe during WW2.

460 Squadron

The most sorties
The highest tonnage
The heaviest casualties
The most decorations
of any Squadron in Bomber Command.

Equipped with twin-engined Wellingtons, 460 Squadron formed in England in November 1941 under RAF Bomber Command. The Squadron first operations involved leaflet dropping missions over Paris and other French cities, as well as bombing missions over Germany.
Attacks against heavily defended German targets were mounted in the face of a well organised German fighter and anti-aircraft defense and in the space of three months, 460 Squadron lost twenty Wellingtons with most of their crews.
After briefly converting to Halifax's, 460 Squadron was re-equipped with Lancaster heavy bombers in October 1942. Lancaster operations began in November with the majority of missions being flown against heavily defended targets in the Ruhr Valley and Berlin.
In June 1943, the unit dispatched twenty seven Lancaster’s against Düsseldorf - setting a Bomber Command squadron record. Two months later, 460 Squadron became the first Bomber Command squadron to fly 1,000 sorties in Lancaster’s. This extraordinary rate of effort was only possible through the dedicated efforts of ground staff, who maintained one of the highest serviceability rates within Bomber Command.
By 1944, the Lancaster’s were being used to hammer coastal fortifications and other French targets in preparation for the D-Day landings. In August the squadron set another Bomber Command record, when it dropped over 1,900 tonnes of bombs during the month.
During an attack over Germany a Lancaster was attacked by two Me 262 jet fighters. In a remarkable display of marksmanship where both fighters were shot down by the Lancaster’s gunners.
460 Squadron flew its last mission of the War in April 1945 when twenty Lancaster’s destroyed Hitler's mountain retreat at Berchtesgaden
After Germany's surrender 460 Squadron flew Allied POWs from Germany and dropped food to starving civilians in Holland. The Squadron disbanded on 2 October 1945.
During its 6,264 operational sorties, 460 Squadron was regarded as one of Bomber Command's foremost Squadrons. This reputation was achieved at an enormous cost, with 188 aircraft destroyed and nearly 1,000 airmen killed.
As a testament to this sacrifice, one of the Squadron's Lancaster’s - "G for George" - is on display at the Australian War Memorial in Canberra.

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I'd just like to record my disgust with the Peace Pledge Union & in particular its spokesman Albert Beale. The memorial commemorates the sacrifice of aircrew in a war against tyranny, it doesn't celebrate the enemy deaths. It annoys me that people like him are allowed by the BBC to make unsubstantiated statements of opinion masquerading as fact in a news story. What evidence is there for his assertion that there was 'great debate in public' about bombing during the war? None that I've ever read but some will take this statement as fact because it's on the BBC website

 

I'd just like to record my disgust with the Peace Pledge Union & in particular its spokesman Albert Beale. The memorial commemorates the sacrifice of aircrew in a war against tyranny, it doesn't celebrate the enemy deaths. It annoys me that people like him are allowed by the BBC to make unsubstantiated statements of opinion masquerading as fact in a news story. What evidence is there for his assertion that there was 'great debate in public' about bombing during the war? None that I've ever read but some will take this statement as fact because it's on the BBC website

Has there been any further media on the subject?

Maybe Mr Beale could give you the names of the couple who were having the "great debate in public" during the war.

 

There's been a follow up on the BBC's website snce the actual unveiling, which quotes the philosopher A C Grayling, author of a book critical of bombing, rather than Beale. Grayling is more measured, recognising the courage of the aircrew. The ceremony was featured on BBC TV news but I switched on as the report finished.

Bomber Command Memorial unveiled

 

I contacted my Grandfather, who was a flt engineer on a Lanc during WW2 in 207 sqn. When i told him of this story, he was so upset i cannot describe (the most i have ever heard him swear) i beleive he has written a lettr to the PPU.

 

How very, very, very, sad these people are. How little they really know, how little they understand. I have no time what so ever for people like this.

 

How very, very, very, sad these people are. How little they really know, how little they understand. I have no time what so ever for people like this.

I couldn't have put it in better words about the Pacifists that dishonor veterans, who gave their lives for freedom, which is sometimes perverted into treason.

 

If anybody wants peace and freedom, it is the poor sod who had to fight for it, and see his comrades die beside him in a lot of cases. It is he who appreciates what freedom is all about. You do not appreciate something until it is taken away, and those who served lived knowing they could lose either their life or their freedom, not knowing what the next day would bring. While the Peace Union aim is said to be peace, they have used the sacrifices and their disrespect of those sacrifices as a stepping stone to get their opinion over and sod anyone elses feelings - a very reasoned and caring response.

 

I found some current commentary.

One of the many failings of our educational system is that it sends out into the world people who cannot tell rhetoric from reality. They have learned no systematic way to analyze ideas, derive their implications and test those implications against hard facts.

"Peace" movements are among those who take advantage of this widespread inability to see beyond rhetoric to realities. Few people even seem interested in the actual track record of so-called "peace" movements -- that is, whether such movements actually produce peace or war.

You can find the rest of this article here:
Townhall.com::Pacifists versus peace::By Thomas Sowell

 

Mr Sowell makes valid comments and it's hard to fault. He's made reasoned arguments whilst being impartial.The heart of the matter could ultimately be down to Sun Tsu - if you want peace prepare for war. Peace is an honourable concept, but to strive for it at all costs, at any cost, will only cause a potential aggressor to take action. Appeasement 1938 ring any bells. Do some of these people genuinely believe the reason we have not had another world war is because everyone is altruistic and none warlike.

The only reason is because the potential aggressor is going to be hit hard and must weigh up the price of his actions. Not many will pick up the sword knowing the victory could/will be pyrrhic as an end result. All the more reason to respect those in the past who gave the sacrifice. Put the Peace Union on an island with a lot of wealth and a belligerent nation near by and see what happens.

I agree with the comments about an aggessor not having to face retaliation over his actions due to do gooders moving in etc etc. The head of hezbollah said last week that he wouldn't have seized the two Israeli soldiers if he knew the extent of the retaliation.

He probably knew as Mr Sowell commented on that the UN would step in to stop it. Throw the first punch then let someone go in to stop it. Then wind the game up by calling it a victory for Hezbollah.

Do gooders cause trouble out of all proportion to their perceived actions/intentions.

 

this is a poem i found last night:

Old Harry was a veteran of the Second World War
Medals adourned his chest, testimony to the action he saw
Fearless in battle, his bravery was matchless
His heroics often mentioned, in company dispatches

Hostilities over, Harry's like were needed no more
Hearded onto troopships and repatriated to the British shore
Picking up his trade, as though he'd never been away
Harry settled back into "civvy" street and proceeded to pick up his weekly pay

Harry fought valiantly for this land, so future generations would be free
Little did Harry and his like realise, how these generations would turn out to be
Feeling lonely and imprisoned, in his little two up and two down
Scared to leave his prison, once the sun had settled down

Heckled and jeered, by teenage louts who really dont deserve a mention
When he went to collect the gratitude, the country called, a state pension
These six foot waste of spaces, wouldnt have heckled Harry in his prime
Yet he surrended his teenage years, fighting for them on the front line

His home was constantly bombarded, by those who saw him as easy prey
Until they went too far, on that never to be forgotten day
Enough is enough, Harry at breaking point, was heard to roar
After a stone through his window, landed on the living room floor

Up in the attic, the old campaigner resolutely sped
Years of anger and torment, had drove all rational thoughts from Harry's head
He took his service revolver, checked every cylinder had a shell
A sense of calm came over Harry, as he decided to send his tormentors to hell

Front door flung open, revolver by his side
The louts just laughed at Harry, that day six from eight died
A police marksman was deployed, and after many warnings given
Harry pointed his empty revolver, why, he thought, should he go on living.

Lest We Forget Too Much Too Late

BY: Mr John Evans

I fear that this is painfully close to the truth

I have also heard the story of a man in a Leeds antique shop being approached by an WW2 D-Day and Arnham Veteran, who asked him to sell all him medals, uniform and letters he recived at the front. What made him do this i hear you ask, it was to pay his council tax.

I have E-mailed my local MP because i belive that our veterans are not getting the support that they deserve. Here is a copy of the E-mail:

I saw the following poem today:

'Old Harry was a veteran of the Second World War
Medals adourned his chest, testimony to the action he saw
Fearless in battle, his bravery was matchless
His heroics often mentioned, in company dispatches

Hostilities over, Harry's like were needed no more
Hearded onto troopships and repatriated to the British shore
Picking up his trade, as though he'd never been away
Harry settled back into "civvy" street and proceeded to pick up his weekly pay

Harry fought valiantly for this land, so future generations would be free
Little did Harry and his like realise, how these generations would turn out to be
Feeling lonely and imprisoned, in his little two up and two down
Scared to leave his prison, once the sun had settled down

Heckled and jeered, by teenage louts who really dont deserve a mention
When he went to collect the gratitude, the country called, a state pension
These six foot waste of spaces, wouldnt have heckled Harry in his prime
Yet he surrended his teenage years, fighting for them on the front line

His home was constantly bombarded, by those who saw him as easy prey
Until they went too far, on that never to be forgotten day
Enough is enough, Harry at breaking point, was heard to roar
After a stone through his window, landed on the living room floor

Up in the attic, the old campaigner resolutely sped
Years of anger and torment, had drove all rational thoughts from Harry's head
He took his service revolver, checked every cylinder had a shell
A sense of calm came over Harry, as he decided to send his tormentors to hell

Front door flung open, revolver by his side
The louts just laughed at Harry, that day six from eight died
A police marksman was deployed, and after many warnings given
Harry pointed his empty revolver, why, he thought, should he go on living.

Lest We Forget Too Much Too Late'

This is painfully close to the truth. Someone i know in Leeds was asked by a World War 2 veteran (who was in the Parachute Regiment and had jump at places such as Arnham and on D-Day) to sell all his medals, uniform and letters so that he could pay his taxes.

I belive that most of our veterans are not getting the money and support that they deserve. I don't just mean World War 2 veterans, i mean all people who have served in Her Majestys Armed forces, from El Alamein to Basrah. Another person i know said:

'My Dad aged at 83 this year, from MRSA contacted in one of our filthy hospitals. He was with 2nd Army group HQ all the way from Normandy to Berlin. Had some interesting stories to tell when he finally opened up a bit in his later years. What saddened me, and this comes from a man who has worked all his life, got a good pension and a happy and comfortable retirment, was when he said to me "sometimes I wonder if it was all worth it. The things we fought for have been thrown away".'

I hope that you will inform other MP's of this and act. Too many of the UK's heros gave up their best years so that we may elect MP's like you. I DO NOT want their sacrifice to be forgotten. I think that these veterans are owed more than the 'council flat' that they often get.

I am only 14 and I have not forgotten their sacrifice, unfortunatly, too many have.

Thank you for your time,

Alexander Rootes

go on this website to find your MP's E-mail:
alms | Houses of Parliament

 

*blushes* what do you mean... i'm serious?

 

I have just sent a letter to a local guy who works at Duxford IWM to see if he has any Royal British Legion members E-mails. I am hopig to be able to record their stories. I would like to thank Owen for giving me this idea. God night all, i have got schol tomorrow and History GCSE