P.of W.Camp -53 SETTORE No 1 PM3300 ITALY

Hi James,
Can you upload the ICRC document - if he was in Italy as you say in Dec 1943, then why was he transferred there from Germany as yopu say he arrived at camp 8B in Aug 1943, somethings not quite right there

TD

From WO 392/1

 

From WO 329/1


Tried to post this as an edit but the system said 'NO'
TD

 

I am so sorry I typed the date wrong. He was on a list at PG 66 on 15/12/1942

 

Thank you. I have that record from the National Archive. It confirms his prisoner number in Germany, unit and service number as all correct but the initials on his name are incorrect. James William was his name but they have him listed as JD Gardiner in error

 

ICRC records show him at PG 53 and moved to PG66 15/12/1943. This should read 15/12/1942

 

Just sometimes in threads its better to add images even of known information as new readers can refer to it, and its all in one spot. My guess would be that the person in Germany who wrote down his particulars got it wrong, or perhaps he intentionally gave the wrong info, and that error has been maintained throught history. When compiling the listing of W) 392/1 (almost 500 pages) I doubt that every was checked, sometimes numbers are slightly out etc, its part of the fun for researchers

You might need sight of this file to confirm Italian camps etc - British army PoWs in Italy | The National Archives
Reference: WO 365/80
Description:
British army PoWs in Italy
Date: 1943
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Former reference in its original department: 68/89
Legal status: Public Record(s)
Closure status: Open Document, Open Description


TD

 

Thank you so much. I will scour those now. I will try to get someone to scan the documents as they are paper copies

 

30th September 1943: A PoW escape goes wrong in Italy

Paul Bullard was a young artist learning his trade at the Royal College of Art when the Second World War broke out. His studies were interrupted by his service in the Royal Artillery, during which he was taken prisoner by Axis forces and held at Campo Concentramento PG 53 at Sforzacosta in Italy. It is this camp that provides the setting of this painting, which highlights the stoicism of the prisoners in coping with the boredom of captivity.

TD

 

Hi,

Welcome to the forum.

I don’t understand the first sentence in the last line of your post as both PG53 and PG66 are Italian camps?

I presume it is a typo and he went to PG66 Dec 1942 (although PG 66 at Capua was often a prisoners first camp on arrival in Italy as it was so close to Naples) before he went to Stalag8B in 1943.

Steve

 

Sorry Steve. What I was trying to say is that although I have records from both his military and red cross records saying he was in both PG 53 and 66. I have not seen his name anywhere online to confirm it. My ultimate goal is to find a photo of him as none have survived. At present I have the RA Museum curator looking through their archives on the hope they have one.

 

Hi,

All understood. However I wouldn’t doubt the accuracy of the information provided by ICRC and drawn from their archives.

I presume you have obtained the information over the past year when ICRC recommenced the provision of hard copy information on the abandonment of their WW2 digitisation process?

They had aborted their 2012 plan to put all their WW2 records online same as they did for WW1 material that went online in 2014.

Steve

 

Hello everybody,

Here is 851207 Gunner J.W Gardiner, shown to be in PG 53 in WO 392/21



Here he is again on website www.campifascisti.it/ on a document issued by the INTERNATIONAL RED CROSS:



Access the website, go to Elenco campi, click on Campi per prigionieri di guerra, click on PG 53, then on Documenti beneath the map, scroll down to the bottom of the list and you will find lists of men sent from PG 53 to Germany on 19, 20 and 21 July 1943. Men were also sent there from PG 73 and PG 82. They went first to Mühlberg from there to Lamsdorf in most cases.

851207 L/Bdr. J.W. Gardiner was originally in the group due to leave PG 53 on 20 July, but his name was crossed out and he was substituted by L/Cpl. Albert Bradley. However, on the 21st he DID leave as you can see here, number 149 out of a total of 150 on that particular day.

If ever anyone wanted the proof that WO 392/21 does NOT show where a man was in Italy in August 1943 but simply shows HIS LAST KNOWN CAMP here it is. His IRCR record shows that Gunner (or L/Bdr) Gardiner was already in Lamsdorf by 20 August!! All the other men (almost 3000) sent to Germany between 19-22 July still appear on WO 392/21 .

Vitellino

 

Kevin,

The prisoners sent from Italy to Germany between 19-22 July 1943, and hence before the Italian Armistice of 8 September, departed from just three camps as I said above. However, evidence exists to show that they were concentrated in these three camps from other camps. For instance, a large number of prisoners (99 if I remember correctly without consulting my notes) were sent to PG 73 Fossoli from PG 52 Pian di Coreglia /Chiavari on 8 July in readiness for this transfer.

You will probably not find evidence of Gnr. Gardiiner's presence in PG 66 in any printed list because as you rightly point out, PG66 was a transit camp.

Vitellino

 

Hi

Does anyone have records of William Matthew Richard Tomlinson service number T 253219 who was in PG 53 following capture in June 1942?

Thanks


Tom

 

What sort of records are you after??

TD

 

Hi TD

Anything really to confirm he was there, I notice from the thread that there are some formal records, so anything at all would he great

Thanks

Tom

 

Suggest you read the post below for this WO, error on my part)
Firstly have a look in :
Reference: WO 392/10
Description:
Section 10: Miscellaneous (includes Palestinians, Cypriots, Locally-Engaged Personnel, Cyrenaica Defence Force, Mauritius Pioneer Corps, Seychelles Pioneer Corps, African Auxiliary Pioneer Corps and Spanish Volunteers in Queen's Royal Regiment)
Date: 1944 Sept
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal status: Public Record(s)
Closure status: Open Document, Open Description

This is available to download from Findmypast, and if lucky I would assume that some members on here already have access to this file and could provide you with an image, there are others above (for example post no 32)


He was later transferred to Germany:
UK, British Prisoners of War, 1939-1945 (Details from Ancestry database)
Name: W M Tomlinson
Rank: Driver
Army Number: T/253219
Regiment: Royal Army Service Corps
POW Number: 139989
Camp Type: Stalag
Camp Number: XI-B
Camp Location: Fallingbostel, Lower Saxony
Record Office: Royal Army Service Corps Record Office, Ore Place, Hastings, Sussex
Record Office Number: 29
Image direct from WO 392/1 - British POW's in Germany




If you need his full service records then they can only be obtained from the MOD via this link - Request records of deceased service personnel - GOV.UK

TD

 

Tom

Some false info there - you would need to get hold of :
Reference: WO 392/21
Description:
Section 1: British Army. Section 2: Australian Army. Section 3: Canadian Army. Section 4: New Zealand Army. Section 5: South African Army. Section 6: Indian Army. Section 7: Naval Forces and Merchant Seamen. Section 8: Air Forces.
This document is a compilation of lists of members of the Allied Forces who were reported by Italian or Red Cross sources as being prisoners in Italian hands, minus those known officially to have died in Italian hands. The document includes men listed who died as a POW at sea in 1942, and also some listed as being in Libyan camps or buried in Greece. Camp locations are given where men were last known to be, in most cases
Date: 1943 Aug

Section 1: British Army. Section 2: Australian Army. Section 3: Canadian Army. Section... | The National Archives

Some members will have copies and would probably be able to cut & paste from this file (as I did for Germany) or you could ask someone to copy it for you, unless you are near to/going to Kew

Sorry for the false lead
TD

 

Hi,

Welcome to the forum. My father was detained in PG 53 before being taken to Germany Sept 1943.

Your best bet would be to apply to the Swiss Red Cross for copies of the records held there. Next enquiry window opens 14th May.

Requests for information about people held during the Spanish Civil War or the Second World War: Quarterly limit reached

You could also go to National Archives to see if he completed a Returning POW Questionnaire.

Both sources should give you details of the dates he was detained in his various POW Camps.

I have both sets of the above papers for my father.

Good Luck

Steve