Otto Carius 1922-2015

Discussion in 'Axis Units' started by von Poop, Jan 24, 2015.

  1. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    So you are saying that my opinion doesnt count, Tom, because I havent fought in a war? Bang goes 98% of the forum's opinions so.......
     
  2. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    It's not really what you said that made me comment above, Tom.
    No real problem from me with veterans of one side being as off as they like directly about the opposition. Fair enough. I get that.

    More lightly responding to Ron; apparently implying the wider point that it was not entirely on that we might mention him at all.

    If we don't cover all aspects, I don't think we're doing history any sort of service whatsoever.
    We're not a Panzer-fanboy sort of bunch - the evidence supports that (certainly no hagiographic 'steely' praise evident, as can be seen on the wider web) ; but I really don't want to go back down that weird thing we used to suffer under, where Axis stuff was often treated as a borderline taboo.
    It's daft, and doesn't happen in any other form of WW2 chatter/study/publication I can think of.
    Nice that we aren't the TIGERZ ARE WAY COOL fanboys (and never will be!), but we also ought to be able to chat in a chilled sort of manner on anything WW2.

    Again - best-selling Author and Tiger veteran dies - that's the sort of thing WW2 forums and associated nerds talk about, isn't it?
     
  3. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Hi Tom

    Not at all uncommon to hear dismissals of those who were 'not there', fair enough, but it takes all sorts as they say. As my father once pointed out it was quite ironic to train for months to fight and kill germans, only to end up marrying one. Thus becoming the son-in-law of a german ww2 veteran who was welcomed on a visit by my other grandfather, a veteran of both world wars and who also worked for UNHCR postwar. As you'd imagine, plenty of shots heard between them and those in the wider family who also served: relatives, good mates and great officers lost.


    The man's death was noted, as he had written a book which many have read. There is no "going nuts" over him, or his record, or his book.
     
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  4. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Hear, hear. What VP and DBF said.
     
  5. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    GERARD

    I am NOT saying that your opinion doesn't count no matter how many HEAR HEAR's you want to add what I said was that a Tank Crew members opinion has more validity than one who was not

    shot at - as matter of fact one of my best friends was a Feldwebel who fought and had to walk back from near Moscow all the away to Dusseldorf…he was a great man in my opinion - and he

    didn't kill Tank Crews…

    Cheers
     
  6. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Does it though, Tom? Really?
    I might agree if the discussion was specifics of particular tank-related activities or actions, or what you saw, felt etc., but how people might feel about discussing a historical personality is a far more open question. Firmly into that old quote of opinions being like ... , and everybody having one.
    You instinctively don't like Carius because of the side he was on and that he served in Panzers that might have shot at you, but I'm pretty neutral other than finding the history interesting. I can't really see a question of validity of opinion there.
    And then we've got those pictures Gerry posted of him meeting up with German tank veterans postwar - sometime in the last few years. (I seem to recall chaps who might well have actually shot at each other).
    He was apparently happy to do so, whereas you maybe wouldn't be. That's fair enough isn't it? No single view on this kind of thing is more valid, even though you're both old tankies.




    Anyway... shall we draw a line under this? (doubtless give or take the odd parting shot, as is traditional ;) )
    Discussion of WW2 personalities, whatever side or affiliation - definitely allowed here.




    Back to old Otto.
    Bang 'Otto Carius Obituary' into Google and you can read reams of the real strange panzer-worship McCoy. Wondering from snippets of interview here and there if the man himself can have been completely comfortable with all that adulation, though I suppose he wrote and controlled the book, and his postwar work website ain't exactly shy of it.
    Some of the Knights Cross chaps seem to have lapped up the attention postwar, but others must have suffered under the bombardment of letters, queries & visitors.

    Sort of makes me wonder if it's the nature of the Knights Cross itself. 'Not quite' always a Germanic VC equivalent - could also be a more cumulative thing, with political attachments - several grades, traditional form, easy to propagandise and use almost as more of an Order of Chivalry than anything else.

    A genius sort of concoction for an authoritarian state that wanted to bind it's military with the Volk, but it hasn't half cast a long shadow over the historiography.
    Would we have quite so much of the 'Armoured Knights!' kind of hagiography1 if there hadn't been such a clear identifier to trace?



    1) eg. Kurowski - The Barbara Cartland of the Third Reich...
     
  7. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran Patron

    A

    One of the lesser joys of reaching, let us say "mature years", is the realisation that one is not always understood .

    I am pleased however that you gave the link to the thread on which Gerry and I discuss the merits of making friends of former enemies.

    The point I made at the time is that I considered that only those offended against have the right to fogive their enemies and so I would be unlikely to emulate Gerry's actions, despite my unlimited admiration for him (Gerry).

    Giving the matter some further thought, I now realise that my hackles were originally raised by the use of the phrase "RIP" on the ww2f site and my relief that the same title appeared to be missing from this forum.

    If that makes me a crotchety old bugger living in the past, tough !

    Given the laws of probability, you have only to hang around for a few years and you will be spared comments such as mine :)

    Ron
     
  8. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    VP

    the line is drawn…

    Cheers
     
  9. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

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  10. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    That's a fine line right there!
     
  11. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Gerard,

    Yes, but it is not the Thin Red Line.

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    Regards
    Tom
     
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