Oradour-sur-Glane

I can't say I was overwhelmed by the place. I think it could be so much more than what it actually is.

I posted a thread on Tulle and another on Oradour when I rode there on my M/bike a few years ago.

 

Here you go:

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/ww2-battlefields-today/15031-bike-trip-oradour-sur-glane.html

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/ww2-battlefields-today/16921-massacre-tulle.html

 

I took some photos when I was there about 18 months ago:

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/album.php?albumid=278

Roxy

 

I recall it Drew. A damn good posting it was. Very informative.
Sapper

 

x

 

First, a few notes on the books you mention:
The 10 volumes on Germany and the Second World War have long been published in German. They're standard when it comes to research, even if some of what was written there is already a tad outdated. Great if it's finally published in English!
I'm also familiar with the tapping protocols you mention - I was part of the research team. Apart from the book 'Soldiers' that you mention above, there are two others: One is 'Tapping Hitler's Generals' by Sönke Neitzel which I highly recommend, and the other is an anthology (that isn't and won't be translated to English) which I recommend because I wrote one of the essays in it.

The tapping protocols largely confirm results of research and don't contain massive surprises as such. About the quotes you mention, well, let's just say the journalists picked some of the juiciest. It is however true that they speak very openly about crimes - be it against civilians, soldiers, on the Eastern or whatever other front. And, what is very important: Virtually none of them is surprised. No matter how horrible a story is - they find it credible (doesn't even matter whether the story is actually made up or not). So, in case anyone was still in doubt about the Wehrmacht being "clean" or not, the protocols paint a clear picture.

As for your other points raised: I agree with you that historiography was for a long time mainly influenced by former generals etc. (and I stated so in my post above). But German historiography changed fundamentally in the past ten, twenty years. Like I said, there are many great studies around, and there is no hesitating about revealing German crimes, no matter what the crimes are. For example, the fact that the murder (or at least death) of millions (!) of Slavs was planned has been made clear by German historians years ago. None - or none that can be taken serious - would try to defend NS ideology and its results.
But indeed it is also backward to claim that each and every German who lived in the Third Reich or was in the German Army was a criminal, or to claim that they were all beyond all limits. As perverse as it may sound given the results, even the Germans had some limits and followed some laws. Look at the war in France - did they rampage there like they did in Russia? No, mostly not - even though Hitler himself made no difference between bolshewism and capitalism - in NS ideology both was of the same, of Jewish origin.
By the way, "you did the same" is definitely not the standard response, on the contrary. In fact, trying to discuss bomber war or allied crimes (not as an excuse or balance for German crimes!!!) can be hazardous for German historians, no matter how reputable he/she is.

Now, don't get me wrong - by no means would I ever justify Nazi ideology or German crimes. But I think it's time that we (at least later generations of historians) should be able to approach the subject with a certain detachedness and objectivity. There is little reason to lump together all Germans and call them all deranged; that's not only too simple, it's also dangerous because it hides the fact that the Third Reich wasn't as singular as we might wish it to be, meaning that similar things actually can happen again. It's important that we recognise how the Nazis got to power, how they changed the German state to get "their" Third Reich, how and why they planned their war in order to prevent similar tendencies.
Again I'd like to stress that I have by no means an affinity towards right(wing) political ideas, on the contrary. But I have dealt with the subject of the Third Reich, national socialism and the German Army for several years and am thus quite familiar with German research on it (I'm not of German nationality myself by the way).

*edit*
You say: That simply isn't true. If you read Neitzel's studies (Welzer is social psychologist, not historian) you will discover that he really pays a lot of attention to getting his facts right. If the authors claim some of it was allied propaganda, then it probably is - BUT that doesn't mean they're trying to defend or belittle German crimes! The various other crimes - no less awful than the one you mention - they write about should be proof enough of that. Trust me, DO read the books and you'll see that the authors have absolutely no problem showing the whole bloody war in the East as what it was: A war of annihilation, based on Nazi ideology, totally out of proportion in regards to crimes. You honestly can't reproach the authors with denialism.

Regarding the German work by the Military History Research Institute,Potsdam "Germany and the Second World War", as far as I am aware,the publications were only published in 2008,admittedly they was a great deal of time spent on them.I would agree that they the standard references and my point was that it would be interesting to see what they have to say about the Third Reich and its various military factions.So how are they outdated?.

Soldiers.Transcripts of Fighting,Killing and Dying has been penned by Sonke Neitzel and Harald Welser.

If you look the content of my post on this publication there is nothing critical about it.The transcripts are said to reflect the conversion between German POWs along a wide range of subjects which the participants thought were private and reveal the atrocities that were allowed to be perpretated against the "untermenchen" or others in the occupied countries.It has been long known that secret recordings of German POW conversations had been made for the purpose of gaining military intelligence.It obviously caught out low and high ranking POWs alike.The bonus came when General von Thoma let the cat out of the bag and raised the subject of the V weapons programme.His surprise that London was not already under attack led to the Brtish authorities taking priority action to counteract their commissioning and use.

Getting back to the publication,I do not think that the information gained by the German authors has seen the light of day before but if it is as it said it is,from these Allied transcripts,then there has to be a high degree of validation.The barbarity of war has been exposed for what it is.Little wonder that there is a preponderance of photographs circulating showing the daily drudge of fighting,killing and dying for fighting forces who had been overwhelmed by ideology.

Of the publication,an English version should be available before the end of the year.

I must take you to task if you think I am saying that all Germans who lived in the Nazi era were Nazis.That cannot be sne can remember the 5000 or so young German men who refused to enter Nazi military service and paid for their dissent with barbaric executions. There were many other martyrs who paid the supreme penalty in upholding their principles.

Now about German laws,I afraid the only German law prevailing in Hitler's Germany was the Enabling Law which was the conduit where the Nazis governed life from the cradle to the grave.

The other point you make about the conduct of the German occupation forces in France.You appear to be implying that this was a model occupation.I am sure there are many Frenchmen who would disagree with that.We have been discussing the outrage at Oradour where civilians were left to the mercy of the invader.While France did not suffer as Russia,they suffered widespread excesses,the memorials throughout France reflect these outages from hamlet to city from an occuoation force who had little,if any,compassion for its people.Apart from those of the Jewish faith,there was no such tagging as "untermenchen"of the French.That was the difference beween the the two campaigns although the French colonial troops were given little mercy in German hands.

About the industrialists.When you look at one of the reasons why Hitler became able to establish the Nazi Party and eventually as the ruling party,one thing sticks out and that is the role of the German industrialist.It was the German industrialists who financially supported the Nazi Party for an anticipated return and were amply rewarded.Ley dissolved the trade unions,requistioned their assets and the industrialists responded with the "guns before butter" policy.Here there was little moral fibre among the lot of them,they all desired cheap slave labour to meet their war production targets and the regime provided it.Partners in crime and the industrialists were known to have good returns.

"Well you British and Americans were no different".From what I see,this is the standard response from those who wish to reduce the burden of guilt on those who took part in Hitler's attempt to fullfil his vision.

Regarding Bomber Command,you have heard of the Dresden raid and the overall aeriel offensive expressed as war crimes surely.Then there was also a documentary presented about 10 years ago regarding the temporary capitivity in May 1945 of a large mass of German POWs by US forces in the fields beween Cologne and Bonn.It was reported that there was a high mortality of prisoners,due it was said,to prisoners being held in the open and not properly fed and watered.

No doubt an example of the US illtreating prisoners,the documentrary was suggesting.Surprisingly,a few years ago I saw an English correspondent declaring in the Daily Telegraph that the dams raids was a war atrocity.

Then we come to your comment quoting my reference to "denial surfacing".I'm afraid that it is my error in not making my comment clear.What I was referring to was the response to the Neitzel and Welser publication,the comment is not mine,I can assure you.

Allied propaganda......Another carefully cultivated myth.These are the adverse comments penned and I am assuming they are German although in English.

It should be interesting to see the British reviews of the publication.As I previously said,it should be here before the end of the year.I have tried to trace it but it appears it is yet to be released in English.Knowing the background to the research and the method of extracting the material,I look forward to reading the publication.

 

x

 

Michael Burleigh in his work on the Third Reich does make the point that there was a difference in the conduct of German troops in the East as against the West. Again, he is not pointing out that the Western Countries had it easy, but that initially they were not subjected to the excesses of Nazi rule the way that the East suffered. But in the end a violent regime will always show its colors and this proved to be the case all over Europe.

 

Article on the BBC news website today about the atrocity committed by members of 2nd SS Panzer Division Das Reich

German investigators have opened a new inquiry into the wartime massacre of 642 people by SS troops in the central French village of Oradour-sur-Glane.

They acted on evidence uncovered in the archived files of East Germany's Stasi secret police about six soldiers, then aged 18 or 19, who are still alive.

East Germany refused to extradite the suspects for the original post-war trial of surviving SS men in France.

The ruins of the village are preserved just as they were after the massacre.

German investigators have travelled to Oradour-sur-Glane to investigate where different SS units were deployed and will hear from witnesses and survivors.

Some 60 soldiers were brought to trial the 1950s. Twenty of them were convicted but all were later released.

The German prosecutor says he hopes a new legal process will begin in Germany but with the suspects now 87 and 88 years old time is short, the BBC's Christian Fraser reports.

Women and children

On 10 June 1944, a detachment of SS troops surrounded the tiny hamlet in the Limousin region.

It is believed by some that they were seeking retribution for the kidnap of a German officer but some say that resistance members were based in a different, nearby village.

Most of the victims were women and children. Many of them were herded into a local church into which hand grenades were thrown before it was set on fire.

The men were locked in a barn. Machine-gunners shot at their legs, then doused them in petrol and set them alight.

Sixty-eight years on, one survivor, Robert Hebras, welcomed the new German inquiry but said it should have happened earlier.

"Lots of the people concerned are now old men like me, who may well have lost their memories. Nonetheless, it is good that Germany is taking responsibility for Oradour and remain concerned by it."

BBC News - Germany inquiry into Oradour wartime massacre in France

And an overview of the Oradour massacre:

The Massaacre in 1944 by the Das Reich Division which struck Oradour

 

Here are some photos of Oradour-sur-Glane taken in the summer of 2010:

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/album.php?albumid=278

Roxy

 

The opening of one episode in the World at War series showing the town has left an indelible mark on me.

 

Better late than never.

All the best

Andreas

 

Yale University | Search Results





Oradour-sur-Glane Search Results | CriticalPast.com: Page 1

 

I have just been watching the News here and the German President has been visiting Aradour-sur-Glane, France.

The French president was also present together with a survivor of the massacre, who was 18 years old at the time and who hid under the bodies of those shot and killed.

It looked very moving for all those present.

I have just looked at the satellite map of the village on Google and it Looks strange seeing the wercked buildings from above.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10284142/German-president-Joachim-Gauck-to-make-history-with-visit-to-Oradour-sur-Glane.html

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/03/oradour-sur-glane-nazi-massacre-village

Regards
Tom

 

Owen,

Yes, I enjoyed looking at your photographs.

I would imagine that it is a Little eirey when walking around, knowing what had taken place in June 1944.

I posted due to the fact that this German President is making a Point at visiting sites like this in Europe, whereas his predecessors stayed away.

Regards
Tom

 

One thing I noticed in the DT news released on the background to the Oradour incident was a report that some victims were s gassed...untrue as far as the official report is concerned.

Described by the French as a "Village Martyr",there is now a visitors centre to the south of the village.Passed through the village in 2009,the visitors centre is interesting but it best to tour the ruins freely, as we did many years ago.

One village in France so martyred and 600 or so villages in Russia receiving the same "special treatment".

The last perpetrator to be brought to trial was Heinz Barth,a SS junior officer in 1944.Then 62 years of age in 1983 he was tracked down in July 1981 living in East Germany and was sentenced to life imprisonment in June 1983.As well as being involved at Oradour,he was also involved in the murder of 92 Czech males in June 1942 at Lidice .He Had previously been sentenced to death in his absence at the Bordeaux military court in 1953.

The judge,Judge Hugot declared at the end of the trial "Only the constant remembrance of this awful crime and the certainty that those responsible for war crimes and crimes against humanity will be justly punished,protects people from a repetition of such barbarity".

I am sure that we have heard this statement declared in the aftermath of many such atrocities.

 

An 88-year-old former member of an SS armored division has been charged with murder and accessory to murder for allegedly taking part in the massacre of 642 French villagers by Nazi soldiers during World War Two.
The man, named only as Werner C, from Cologne, has been charged with 25 counts of murder and hundreds of counts of accessory to murder in connection with the slaughter in Oradour-sur-Glane.
The investigation into the massacre where almost the entire population of the village, including more than 400 women and children, was gunned down or burned alive on June 10, 1944, was re-opened by German prosecutors last year

http://www.oradour.info/



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2535926/Prosecutors-charge-88-year-old-man-1944-Nazi-massacre-Oradour-Sur-Glane-642-villagers-shot-burnt.html