Thanks Von, I thought the Royal Navy could have performed alot better with the odds in their favor. What were the total number of ships involved? I remember reading that the Germans had over 100 ships involved and this was the largest naval armada ever up to that time.
Geoff, The Germans had no where near the firepower that the Royal Navy had. As a tribute to their commander Lutjens with: 2 Battlecruisers - Gneisenau and Scharnhorst. 3 Heavy Cruisers - Admiral Hipper, Blücher, and Lützow. 4 Light Cruisers - Emden, Karlsruhe, Köln, and Königsberg. 14 Destroyers (Narvik: Georg Thiele, Wilhelm Heidkamp, Hans Luedemann, Hermann Kuenne, Diether von Roeder, Anton Schmitt, Wolfgang Zenker, Bernd von Arnim, Erich Giese, Erich Koellner; Trondheim: Paul Jacobi, Bruno Heinemann, Theodor Riedel, Friedrich Eckoldt) 1 Artillery Training Ship (Bremse) 8 Torpedo Boats (Albatross, Greif, Kondor, Leopard, Luchs, Möwe, Seeadler, Wolf). 4 Minesweepers. 39 Transport Ships. 8 Tankers. 1 Auxiliary Vessel. 28 Submarines. faced off with the Royal Navy and completed his operation against: 4 Battleships - Resolution, Rodney, Valiant, and Warspite. 2 Battlecruiser - Renown and Repulse. 3 Aircraft carriers - Ark Royal, Furious and Glorious. 4 Heavy cruisers - Berwick, Devonshire, Suffolk, and York. 6 Light cruisers - Birmingham, Effingham, Glasgow, Manchester, Sheffield, and Southampton. 5 Light Cruisers - Arethusa, Aurora, Coventry, Curlew, Enterprise, Galatea, and Penelope. 4 Anti-Air Cruisers - Cairo, Carlisle, Curacoa, Calcutta. 20 Minesweepers. 21 Destroyers. 17 Submarines The Royal Navy had clear superiority and we didn't include the 2 French Cruisers or 11 destroyers.
Geoff, The Germans had no where near the firepower that the Royal Navy had. As a tribute to their commander Lutjens with: 2 Battlecruisers - Gneisenau and Scharnhorst. 3 Heavy Cruisers - Admiral Hipper, Blücher, and Lützow. 4 Light Cruisers - Emden, Karlsruhe, Köln, and Königsberg. 14 Destroyers (Narvik: Georg Thiele, Wilhelm Heidkamp, Hans Luedemann, Hermann Kuenne, Diether von Roeder, Anton Schmitt, Wolfgang Zenker, Bernd von Arnim, Erich Giese, Erich Koellner; Trondheim: Paul Jacobi, Bruno Heinemann, Theodor Riedel, Friedrich Eckoldt) 1 Artillery Training Ship (Bremse) 8 Torpedo Boats (Albatross, Greif, Kondor, Leopard, Luchs, Möwe, Seeadler, Wolf). 4 Minesweepers. 39 Transport Ships. 8 Tankers. 1 Auxiliary Vessel. 28 Submarines. faced off with the Royal Navy and completed his operation against: 4 Battleships - Resolution, Rodney, Valiant, and Warspite. 2 Battlecruiser - Renown and Repulse. 3 Aircraft carriers - Ark Royal, Furious and Glorious. 4 Heavy cruisers - Berwick, Devonshire, Suffolk, and York. 6 Light cruisers - Birmingham, Effingham, Glasgow, Manchester, Sheffield, and Southampton. 5 Light Cruisers - Arethusa, Aurora, Coventry, Curlew, Enterprise, Galatea, and Penelope. 4 Anti-Air Cruisers - Cairo, Carlisle, Curacoa, Calcutta. 20 Minesweepers. 21 Destroyers. 17 Submarines The Royal Navy had clear superiority and we didn't include the 2 French Cruisers or 11 destroyers. I was not talking superiority just the numbers and by your figures the Germans had 112. The RN with French sit at 102. Not Apples with Apples but a lot of craft in any case.
This is a really informative Thread Herr Oberst. Well Done. Seems like the Norwegian campaign was a significant one all right.
This is a really informative Thread Herr Oberst. Well Done. Seems like the Norwegian campaign was a significant one all right. Been thinking the same. One of those rare threads that make you think; "Must buy more books" Good stuff. So What sort of losses did the Kriegsmarine suffer?
Thanks guys, I'm enjoying it too. Geoff, 4 battleships, 3 aircraft carriers and a heavy cruiser would tend to tip the battle when used properly.
Well done Oby for coming up with such a fantastic thread. Read the list of ships involved on both sides, and weren't there some famous names in there? Makes you stop and think.
So What sort of losses did the Kriegsmarine suffer? The Blücher, a heavy cruiser, The light cruisers, Königsberg and Karlsruhe and over 10 destroyers.
This is a really informative Thread Herr Oberst. Well Done. Seems like the Norwegian campaign was a significant one all right. Agreed, great thread. Nice to sit back and learn. Thanks Herrmeister.
Thanks, The Royal Navy also plastered a bunch of troopships and sent them to Davy Jones locker. The Admiral Hipper, Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, were all damaged and the Lützow was torpedoed on her way home from Norway. Overall the Kriegsmarine was mauled but the operation was a success.
Thanks, The Royal Navy also plastered a bunch of troopships and sent them to Davy Jones locker. The Admiral Hipper, Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, were all damaged and the Lützow was torpedoed on her way home from Norway. Overall the Kriegsmarine was mauled but the operation was a success. Weren't a group of ships attacked in a fjord and sunk, four or five at least by a group of H class destroyers. Only for them to be savaged themselves.
Weren't a group of ships attacked in a fjord and sunk, four or five at least by a group of H class destroyers. Only for them to be savaged themselves. i think you are talking about the battle of narvik
i think you are talking about the battle of narvik Two naval battles were fought at Narvik in 1940. This Norwegian port was important to the Germans because it was used to ship out iron ore to supply Nazi Germany. On 9 April the Germans arrived in ten destroyers and landed 2,000 troops there. The British had laid mines off the entrance to the port only the day before, but had not anticipated a German occupation. The first battle of Narvik was initiated by the British Navy, who had orders to prevent the Germans landing. Captain Bernard Warburton-Lee commanded a British destroyer flotilla of five ships which arrived too late. Luckily, U-boats in the port failed to spot the flotilla. The British depended now on stealth for a successful attack. Early on the morning of 10 April, with added advantage of heavy snow, the British entered the harbour and sunk two German destroyers and six merchant ships, damaging another destroyer. Unbeknown to the British navy, a further five destroyers were at anchor in other fjords and these emerged to attack the British flotilla, killing Warburton-Lee, destroying his flagship, sinking another and damaging two more ships. But the Germans had to retreat and make repairs. They were stranded without fuel and a second battle began on 13 April. The new British force consisted of the battleship HMS Warspite and eight destroyers under the command of Vice Admiral William Whitworth. The Germans had eight destroyers still in the fjord along with two U-boats. The Koellner was torpedoed and sunk. Then Whitworth's force met the German destroyers Kuinne, Ludemann, Zenker and Armin - destroying all of them. The remaining German destroyers were pursued from fjord to fjord by HMS Eskimo, HMS Bedouin, HMS Forester, HMS Hero and HMS Icarus. The Eskimo was badly damaged by the Theile, which was run aground before capsizing. Of the German forces in Narvik, only U-51 survived by escaping out to sea.
Two naval battles were fought at Narvik in 1940. My georaphy teacher at school had been a navigating officer on one of the destroyers and the easist way to divert his attention was to ask him at the action!
After Norway Hipper was the only operational heavy unit which the Kriegsmarine had left *, its destroyer force had been destroyed and any reasonable chance of providing an escort for a proposed invasion of GB had been lost. Both sides had made plans for the "what if the other side does something" , in the event the Germans "jumped first". For the British the attrition on the German navy was , if not "worth it" an opportunity that they did not squander. On the otherhand if the germans had not had a "torpedo problem" some heavy units of the RN might have been in "diffs". * For ops at time of Sea Lion.
A super thread with great posts to read. Further to the Glorious being sunk, after Sqd Ldr Cross had led seven Hurricanes to safety and the first deck landing of monoplanes proved that the RN could use modern fighters, he noticed that the Commander (Flying) was not on board. He found out that the captain of Glorious, 'had put him ashore'. Commander Le Geyt in Diane, noticed a signalling lamp in glorious calling up Ark royal. It was a request for permission to part company and proceed ahead to Scapa Flow, for the purposes of making preparations for impending Courts-Martial. The request was approved. The Glorious then parted company and proceeded, accompanied by two destroyers, Acasta and Ardent, away from the protection of the Ark Royal and escorts in order that her Captain could carry out a courts-martial. There was apparently no aircraft flown to provide reconnaissance or early warning of enemy shipping and shortly after the Glorious is pursued by two German Battle cruisers who hit the Glorious with their second salvo. There were only 39 survivors from the Glorious and the two Destroyers, which made a compliment of more than 1500 men. A tragic event that in my humble opinion should never have happened. Regards Tom
Of the German heavy units involved Scharnhorst was damaged as a result of her encounter with HMS Renown - sea damage and mechanical failures. (The sea keeping qualities of the Scharnhorst class was quite poor even in moderate seas , the new bow never quite "cured" the problem and the decks were often awash.) Blucher was sunk in the approaches to Oslo and Lutzow was damaged by shell fire , she was later torpeoded and heavily damaged by HMS Spearfish. Karlsruhe was torpedoed and crippled by HMS Truant off Kristiansand, later sunk by Km. Greif. Konigsberg , bombed and sunk in Bergen. Hipper damaged when rammed by HMS Glowworn. Eight destroyers sunk at Narvik , the German ships also inflicting damage on their attackers. On balance the Royal Navy had a number of lucky escapes - Warspite , Valient , Berwick , York and Devonshire are all lucky to escape the attentions of U-boats - "the torpedo crisis" being their saviour. Suffolk seriously damaged by air attack , Glorious lost to Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. The success in landing troops in the South and flying in aircraft formed a basis for the eventual German success - the Allied recapture of Narvik was something of a hollow victory when they withdrew in the wake of the attack on France. The German landings were hampered by stiff resistance from the Norwegians and their having to use Kriegsmarine vessels to land troops. The initial landings were free from Allied intervention , surprise , the belief that "the Germans would not try it" and the faint by Scharnhorst and her sister which drew the Home Fleet west to look for them was a success. Post Norway the Germans were very much depleted , Norway came at a cost and the Kriegsmarine paid it. From the British point of view they were reacting to the unexpected and had top do so very quickly - they were unprepared to mount an operation to Norway and had no hard intelligence to go on what the Germans were about , were their capital ships where and apart from attacking the enemy they had to cover putting troops ashore with mininal aircover. Hindsight helps little when you focus on what was happening at the time - I think the Royal Navy did quite well , they destroyed the light cruiser force - sinking two of them , the Norwegians sank Blucher , Lutzow was crippled and needed her stern rebuilt. Hipper was damaged in a gallant action , the destroyer force located in Narvik was destroyed. Had the Home Fleet not chased the two sisters , a what if , what if the U-bopats had good eels in their tubes - the RN might well have been in bother. The victims. Blucher Blücher - Oscarsborg Fortress & Blücher WreckXSite Today Hipper. Admiral Hipper - Menu Karlsruhe Karlsruhe Photos Lutzow Deutschland/Lützow & Admiral Scheer & Admiral Graf Spee Deutschland Operational History Konigsberg Königsberg Photos Königsberg Operational History Narvik Destroyers. Z17 Diether von Roeder Information http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/war-sea/15913-cap-tallies.html Above photos taken from Michael Whitelys bokks on "German Capital Ships" and "German Cruisers" both published by arms and armour press.
