Operation Plunder - Mapping

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by Packhow75, Apr 4, 2010.

  1. Packhow75

    Packhow75 Senior Member

    I recently picked up an original Map for Operation Plunder covering the Emmerich area of Germany.

    This is marked "Not to be used for Shooting".

    Would be grateful to find out who this map was intended for and why it was marked as such (ie why not for shooting, and what the numerical references would have been for).

    Pic attached.

    Many thanks


    Tim
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Kieron Hill

    Kieron Hill Senior Member

    Having been looking at maps and various war
    diaries over the past few weeks I have noticed
    that down the right handside colum of the war
    diaries they state the map to be used, sheet
    numbers and scales etc... I would guess this
    was to stop any blue on blue accidents, you
    would hope that everyone taking part in the
    operation was singing from the same song
    sheet if you know what I mean
     
  3. Packhow75

    Packhow75 Senior Member

    Having been looking at maps and various war
    diaries over the past few weeks I have noticed
    that down the right handside colum of the war
    diaries they state the map to be used, sheet
    numbers and scales etc... I would guess this
    was to stop any blue on blue accidents, you
    would hope that everyone taking part in the
    operation was singing from the same song
    sheet if you know what I mean

    Kieron

    Interesting theory... however personally I would disagree with the idea that references in a War Diary would be there to prevent an accident from occuring... or to state the map to be used.

    War Diaries are no different from any other form of diary in that they are after the event write ups on what was done by whom and where (hence the map references in them)... according to the recollection of the person writing them. War diaries are some of the best historical accounts of events, given that they were written by the guys who took part in them very soon after the event, and are not someone else's interpretation written years later.

    "Not for shooting", perhaps means not for Artillery Purposes, but for something else - Air-support, ground observation ?

    The blue overlay is I believe often referred to as "defence overlay" and intended to provide important tactical or intelligence information to the recipient of the map - I have numerous other maps for other Operations with the defence overlay print, but this is the first I've come across with the phrase "not for shooting"... hence the questions.

    Happy to be proven wrong about any ideas and theories I may have, and looking for answers... so look forward to healthy debate on the subject.

    Cheers

    Tim
     
  4. idler

    idler GeneralList

    I think the numbers are simply target reference numbers, shorthand for referring to a particular target. Some are clearly point targets, others are linear barrages. The Gunners would have a corresponding list with the actual shooting data for each target.

    My guess is that this is an overlay issued to the forward observation officers and, perhaps, other units to identify the planned targets. The 'not for shooting' notice suggests that there may be errors on the map that the gunners have allowed for by registering the targets in advance. The overlay shows the other arms what map features will be hit using the corrected data; an 'off the map' shoot at a grid reference would probably miss because of the map error.

    That's a guess - feel free to shoot it down...
     
  5. Rob Dickers

    Rob Dickers 10th MEDIUM REGT RA

    Tim
    These are the maps issued to Artillery Regts for the forthcoming operation from the Corps CRA or AGRA(s) involved, they would be accompanied by a Fire-Plan and a list of target No's for the appropriate Regt to shoot, the Regt would then produce a 'Trace' from this map for their targets as their own overlay for shooting.
    Here is another Original AGRA map for "Veritable"
    Rob

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Packhow75

    Packhow75 Senior Member

    Tim
    These are the maps issued to Artillery Regts for the forthcoming operation from the Corps CRA or AGRA(s) involved, they would be accompanied by a Fire-Plan and a list of target No's for the appropriate Regt to shoot, the Regt would then produce a 'Trace' from this map for their targets as their own overlay for shooting.
    Here is another Original AGRA map for "Veritable" Rob

    Rob (and Idler)

    Thanks for your explanations

    So, if I understand you correctly, these maps have predetermined targets plotted on them for the Artillery to shoot at... but that the references are NOT to be used for Shooting, the Battery HQ needing to plot the target seperately. A process along these lines:-

    • The Target is identified using the 4 digit reference on the map - either by FOO or Infantry or indeed anyone else.

    • The target reference is passed to the Battery HQ who cross reference it with a lookup table with coordinates already recorded and then pass these coordinates to the battery to shoot at.
    So, the map is intended for issue to an Artillery unit... and cross referencing to an article on this forum by Tom McCarthy, was possibly issued to this unit (though I guess it could have been another):-

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/allied-units/22039-7th-loyals-92nd-loyals-laa-regiment-ra-1940-1946-a.html


    Nice map for Veritable... I have several of the Reichswald area with the Defence overlay showing minefields, trenches etc, but hadnt previously seen the Arty map.


    Cheers

    Tim
     
  7. Packhow75

    Packhow75 Senior Member

    Here is another Original AGRA map for "Veritable"

    Rob

    Home now after the Easter break and I realise I've got a copy of your Veritable map.

    I'd never previously noticed the "not to be used for shooting" comment at the top.

    My copy however is a reprint, made for a book series which had various "pull-outs" in it... one of which was this map, with a trace overlay (as you mention above) for the artillery firing which I'd also not previously noticed!!!

    So, could have answered my own question if I'd realised the answers were already there... and will have a damn good rummage through the rest of the book series to see what other gems I've missed.

    I've popped my maps together for interest in the attached photo... these are really far more appropriate for Veritable than Plunder, and I suppose the big green one in the middle is ideal for anyone interested specifically in the Reichswald forest)... though am still missing a few to complete the set of 1:25000 for Europe!!!

    I think perhaps a trip to Beek next year could be in the offing... probably a couple of weeks around the 17th Sept - alas no time this year... what's the "trespass law" like in Germany... can you cross private farm land without permission of the landowner?

    Cheers

    Tim
     

    Attached Files:

  8. Rob Dickers

    Rob Dickers 10th MEDIUM REGT RA

    :)
    Tim
    Very nice set of maps there, you could ask Smudger Jr on here about the trespass law as he lives in Germany and will know. There were 2 Arty Maps for "Veritable" here is the other one showing the Reichswald Targets.
    Rob

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Packhow75

    Packhow75 Senior Member

    Rob
    Another great map you have too !

    On a different note, your signature for 16th Battalion Royal Fusiliers (City of London) Regt... is this anything to do with "7th City of London RA" - this was an ack-ack unit which had the honour of being able to march through the City of London with fixed bayonets. Am interested in finding out more about this unit because my Mum served with this unit in 1947/8 and as yet have found little data about it. I have a few photos and that's about it. Also want to find out what her Army number was (she alas cannot remember).

    Cheers

    Tim

    Ps - Mapping wise, I have a couple of assault maps for Operation Dragoon, Planning and tactical maps for Overlord (ref Bogus Map series posting) and Operation Husky... then the usual run-of-the-mill maps of various parts of the UK and France.
     
  10. idler

    idler GeneralList

  11. Packhow75

    Packhow75 Senior Member

    Interested in maps - have you seen the Defence Surveyors Association site?

    Not previously seen this... very nice articles... need to get some more toner !

    Cheers

    Tim
     
  12. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

  13. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

  14. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

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