operation dragoon

Discussion in 'Searching for Someone & Military Genealogy' started by cubann, Apr 16, 2009.

  1. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    All - this become more weird the more I delve into it ......

    While the British only recognises the 2nd Independent para bde as being involved in Dragoon - the US navy appears to come up with the answer - the photo apparently shows the US 509 para infantry battalion lads talking to the members of 6th Brit Airborne - BUT the main US OB of the Bulge has the 509 US PIb as being in V111 Corps for their FIRST action in the Ardennes. The town of La Muy is approx 50 miles North of the South of France coast near St Raphael......

    They also mention that the 4th - 5th - and 6th para battalions were involved in that area ....the US 509 paras THEN went on to the Ardennes with Collins' V111Division - so the muddy waters become clear once more .....

    """" Operation Anvil-Dragoon. Just some additions to what was already discussed.
    1. The US invasion force was composed of the US VI Corps with three US divisions (3d, 36th and 45th).
    2. This web site includes some discussion of what British Naval Forces were allocated to the invasion.
    South, France, Landings, Anvil, Dragoon, Cunningham, RN, invasion
    ... Naval Control, Attack & Convoy Escort Forces, British & Allied. French. USA. Battleships, 1. 1. 3. Cruisers, 7. 5. 8. Destroyers & escorts, 27. 19. 52. Other warships, 69. 6. 157. ...
    http://www.naval-history.net/WW2CampaignsSFrance.htm
    3. The US airborne units are listed below. The British airborne forces included the 4th, 5th & 6th Para Bns and 1st Indian Pathfinders.
    Date: 15 August 1944
    Unit: 1st Abn. Task Force (460th PFA, 463rd PFABn.; 509th PIB; 517th PCT; 551st PIB; 596th PCT Eng. Co.) (Dropping of 300 paratroop dummies, prior to landing)
    Operation: Anvil Dragoon (Rugby)
    Troopers: 5,607
    Country: France
    Dropzone: Cote d' Azur, Riviera
    4. The 1st Special Service Force (Devil's Brigade) attacked and seized the islands of Port Cros and Levant which allowed the invasion force to land with minimal problems.
    5. The French Commandos were responsible for seizing German gun positions to the north of the landing forces. They were successful.
    6. Of interest is the 551st PIB which would later be attached to the 82d Airborne during the Battle of the Bulge. The unit suffered horrendous casualties and was deactivated in Feb 45 with the survivors being assigned to the 82d Airborne Division and the 18th Airborne Corps (US).
    6. I have included some web sites about the 551st PIB (GOYA) because of what happened to it while it was attached to the 82d Airborne Division.
    Operation Anvil-Dragoon. Just some additions to what was already discussed.
    1. The US invasion force was composed of the US VI Corps with three US divisions (3d, 36th and 45th).
    2. This web site includes some discussion of what British Naval Forces were allocated to the invasion.
    South, France, Landings, Anvil, Dragoon, Cunningham, RN, invasion
    ... Naval Control, Attack & Convoy Escort Forces, British & Allied. French. USA. Battleships, 1. 1. 3. Cruisers, 7. 5. 8. Destroyers & escorts, 27. 19. 52. Other warships, 69. 6. 157. ...
    South, France, Landings, Anvil, Dragoon, Cunningham, RN, invasion

    Cheers
     
  2. cubann

    cubann Junior Member

    hi every one in answer to your question drew is it my father i am pretty confident it is
    but in order to counteract my own bias i have had the photo on my pc desktop full size
    for the last 6 months and all relatives and mates who knew him have picked him out
    when i have asked them what they see in the photo. the best commet was no one can
    mistacke that crooked smile also i have compared younger and older black and white photos and they are a good match so i have been pretty thorugh although i will accept its not conclusive proof.
    i think tom cannings answer is the most feasible and that the photo is mislabled
    the fact there is no location means it could be lumped in with simaler photos
    also i have zoomed in on us soldiers shouder patches with some photo software
    which seems to show basic outline and shape of the 509th emblem
    thoses guys sure had a tough time out of a battilion strength of 700 only 50 made it
    to 1945 another intresting footnote during operation dragoon it appears they were misdropped over st tropez
    regards cuban
     
  3. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I'm confused..... so where are they then?

    What patch are you refering to? I can only see the American Armband on three of the four Americans (Two sitting one standing and one squatting)

    Cheers
    Andy
     
  4. airborne medic

    airborne medic Very Senior Member

    hi every one in answer to your question drew is it my father i am pretty confident it is
    but in order to counteract my own bias i have had the photo on my pc desktop full size
    for the last 6 months and all relatives and mates who knew him have picked him out
    when i have asked them what they see in the photo. the best commet was no one can
    mistacke that crooked smile also i have compared younger and older black and white photos and they are a good match so i have been pretty thorugh although i will accept its not conclusive proof.
    i think tom cannings answer is the most feasible and that the photo is mislabled
    the fact there is no location means it could be lumped in with simaler photos
    also i have zoomed in on us soldiers shouder patches with some photo software
    which seems to show basic outline and shape of the 509th emblem
    thoses guys sure had a tough time out of a battilion strength of 700 only 50 made it
    to 1945 another intresting footnote during operation dragoon it appears they were misdropped over st tropez
    regards cuban

    Whilst i have no wish to enter into a protracted debate, looking again at the article in ATB they print 7 photos of US/British paratroopers including the picture in question and one man IMHO appears in two of the shots including the 'mixed group'.....reading further it states the photos used were all taken on 15th August by Signal Corps Sergeant Irwing Leibowitz.....also IMHO the general feel of the pictures are summer not February/March time.....
     
  5. cubann

    cubann Junior Member

    hi drew if you zoom in just above the arm bands to the max i dont know what software you are running but mine appears to show a very blurrey patch which
    seems to show basic outline and shape of emblum again im not saying its
    conclusive just my opinion i am waiting on my dads service record which maybe
    will throw some light on the subject
    regards cubann
     
  6. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Drew -
    If you re read my posting on what the US navy has to show - then it becomes obvious that the operation that they are showing is that of Dragoon - 15th August 1944 - the town of La Muy is some 50 miles North of St Raphael which is in the SOUTH of France and the American paras are that of the 509 Parachute Infantry battalion which went on to join the 82 nd Paras in the Ardennes and were so cut up that they were disbanded shorty afterwards - as we all know the 6th British Airborne also took part in the Bulge battle......
    Cheers
     
  7. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Apologies all,

    So it is Op Dragoon as Owen said and La Motte/Le Muy/Le Michael area as ABM and ATB said.

    Sos I was getting confused with all the mention of the Ardennes and I couldn't see any snow on the floor or winter clothing etc. :)


    Cubann,

    Are you refering to this chap with the helmet on? Its the only one that appears to have a badge but he's British.
    [​IMG]

    Regards
    Andy
     
  8. Dave McIntyre

    Dave McIntyre Pegasusred

    Hi to everyone,
    I'm new to this website but have been researching British Airborne Forces for many years so thought I'd throw a few comments in as I have studied 6th Airborne Division in the Ardennes Campaign (Battle of the Bulge) in depth. Firstly, although several elements of 6th Airborne Division did make contact with U.S. Forces in the Ardennes no mention of this is made for R.U.R. men in the War Diaries or the well researched book "The Rifles Are There - 1st & 2nd Battalions The Royal Ulster Rifles in the Second World War" by David Orr & David Truesdale. The initial phases of the Battle of the Bulge were snow free but by the time 6th Airborne engaged enemy forces, early in 1945, severe weather conditions had produced snow which persisted until the division departed the region. In fact all airborne elements of R.U.R. had left the Ardennes and arrived in Holland, close to the River Maas, on 24th January, 1945 with no mention of meeting up with American forces. In all photographic and archive material I have researched no mention can be found of the armbands employed in Operation Dragoon being used also in the Battle of the Bulge and so in my ever so 'umble opinion the photo shown is not from the Ardennes. Having said that, I can only reiterate what others have said so far, in that an RUR man should not have been in the South of France!! However, on occasion, men of differing divisions were inter-mingled as observers (a few 1st airborne dropped with 6th Airborne on D-Day) to report back on operational aspects but usually they would have been officers or senior N.C.O.'s so the mystery continues!! Have you managed to obtain his service history or has this not be possible because you are not next of kin?
    Cheers
    Dave
     
  9. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Dave -
    I thought that the US Navy had established that the 4th 5th and 6th brigades of the 6th Airborne were involved in the Operation Dragoon in the South of France - which included the RUR - and which appears to be photgraphed at La Muy in the South of France at the date of that landing - 15th August '44
    Whether the RUR was involved later in the Ardennes along with the rest of the 6th Airborne Division would appear to irelevant to this thread...
    Cheers
     
  10. airborne medic

    airborne medic Very Senior Member

    Dave -
    I thought that the US Navy had established that the 4th 5th and 6th brigades of the 6th Airborne were involved in the Operation Dragoon in the South of France - which included the RUR - and which appears to be photgraphed at La Muy in the South of France at the date of that landing - 15th August '44
    Whether the RUR was involved later in the Ardennes along with the rest of the 6th Airborne Division would appear to irelevant to this thread...
    Cheers

    Tom,

    did you mean to say 4th, 5th and 6th Battalions? These were all in the 2nd Ind Parachute Brigade....the 4th Brigade was in the 1st Airborne Division whilst the other two were in the 6th Airborne Division......
     
  11. airborne medic

    airborne medic Very Senior Member

    Dave,

    Welcome to the forum.....another airborne nut?????

    Good first post BTW..do you have much info on the medics in 6th Airborne in the Ardennes?
     
  12. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Hi Dave and welcome to the forum....as ABM says and cheers for your contribution.

    Regards
    Andy
     
  13. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Ab Medic -
    sorry for the delay but the web site is doing it's usual yo-yo mode to-day
    on the 4th5th & 6th Batts - I was quoting the US navy on the paryicipants of the Dragoon - without checking which was who as I knew that the 2nd Independent bde was involved - so which bde wre the RUR actually in at that time as the photo seems to indicate they were in the Dragoon - accroding to Cubann the original poster - as I said in mssge # 21 - it gets more weird the more I delve into this case......

    Cheers
     
  14. airborne medic

    airborne medic Very Senior Member

    Ab Medic -
    sorry for the delay but the web site is doing it's usual yo-yo mode to-day
    on the 4th5th & 6th Batts - I was quoting the US navy on the paryicipants of the Dragoon - without checking which was who as I knew that the 2nd Independent bde was involved - so which bde wre the RUR actually in at that time as the photo seems to indicate they were in the Dragoon - accroding to Cubann the original poster - as I said in mssge # 21 - it gets more weird the more I delve into this case......

    Cheers
    Tom,
    To the best of my knowledge at the time of Dragoon 1RUR were part of the 6th Airlanding Brigade....they were in Normandy at the time. According to my research on airborne meidcs 1RUR were supported by 3 Section from 195 Airlanding Field Ambulance and when Dragoon started in late August 6th Airlanding Brigade and 1RUR were around Cour Carrel au Cerf near the River Touques. Towards the end of the month 6th Airlanding Brigade were around Berville-Foubec towards the Rivers Seine and Risle. On 29th August they were warned of their impending move back to the UK which happened on or around 4th September 1944.
    No evidence of anyone going anywhere near the south of France......except the 2nd Ind Para Brigade of course
     
  15. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Ab medic
    That;s what is making it all so confusing - no question that 2nd Bde were involved but Cubann claims that photo of his Dad - with RUR was taken at La Muy on 15th August .......and there the plot has thickened.....so perhaps he has two Dads ...hey stranger things happen in wartime

    Cheers
     
  16. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Just found this pic on Wiki.
    [​IMG]
    The Airborne Assault: Riflemen of 1st Battalion Royal Ulster Rifles, 6th Airlanding Brigade, 6th Airborne Division, aboard a jeep and trailer, driving off Landing Zone 'N' past a crashed Airspeed Horsa glider on the evening of 6 June 1944.
     
  17. Packhow75

    Packhow75 Senior Member

    hi everyone can any one tell me what regiment the usa guys in the attached photo are from the few clues i got on the internet indicate
    that they are part of operation dragoon but heres the puzzle the man
    with the beret sitting leaning against the wall is my dad from 1st battilion
    royal ulster rifles 6th airborne and there is no record of the rur being part of operation dragoon my best guess is that the d day drop of my dads
    regiment met up with dragoon forces at some point any clues to the usa guys and any other info would be much appreciated
    regards cuban
    update it appears that both forces were in the ardennes (battle of the bulge) a possilbe location of photo


    This photo was taken at Le Mitan, outside one of the buildings used initially as the British HQ, opposite the British Regimental Aid Post, adjacent to the POW cage.

    I suggest you get a copy of First Airborne Task Force by Michel de Trez... all the info you need is there.

    Tim
     
  18. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Tim -
    I thought you had finally solved this ongoing mystery - so we are back at square one and a half....oh well....

    Cheers
     
  19. wtid45

    wtid45 Very Senior Member

    From Paratrooper by Gerard Devlin. "Early in the morning of D-plus-1, the town of Le Muy was attacked by a mixed Allied force of gilder infantrymen, British paratroopers, and a few units from the 509th PIB. at a cost of one man killed and fifthteen wounded , the Allies secured Le Muy before noon and caotured over seven hundred prisoners."Also in the book is the pic that started this thread and the caption reads August 15th, 1944 France. American and British Paratroopers rest beside a farmhouse.
     
  20. Packhow75

    Packhow75 Senior Member

    Am fairly certain the photo is one from a series of photos taken in Le Mitan near the Regimental Aid Post infront of barn doors of what are now houses, similar to the one in the attached photo.

    When in Provence this summer I will take photos of all of the houses in the road... maybe one will be exactly the right place!

    Tim
     

    Attached Files:

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