Operation Deadstick Questions

Discussion in 'Airborne' started by Hman, Jun 6, 2014.

  1. Hman

    Hman Junior Member

    Hi, I wonder if you could assist with a couple of questions.

    1. Could anyone recommend any good books covering Operation Deadstick (the capture of the Orne River and Caen Canal Bridges)?


    2. I have read Stephen Ambrose’s book, in which he refers to three (?) Afro-Caribbean troops serving with the Ox and Bucks. I assume from this photo one of them is Pte Baines (http://www.britisharmedforces.org/graphix/wallwork/dco_ox_600.gif)?

    Does anyone have any further information on what happened to him etc? He does not appear to be listed on the Chalk listing (http://www.britisharmedforces.org/pages/nat_jim_wallwork.htm)?

    many thanks
    Howard
     
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  2. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Hi Howard and welcome ... :)

    I'm afraid I can't find anything more than you on Pte. Baines, and it is odd he doesn't appear on the Coup-de-Main nominal roll. Back in 2006 another member was seeking information on Baines as well - see here:

    http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/13481-what-are-you-reading-at-the-moment/page-10#entry51875

    As far as books go I strongly recommend Neil Barber's The Pegasus and Orne Bridges, however, it contains no mention of Pte. Baines. A couple books by 2nd Battalion Oxf and Bucks Light Infantry members come to mind:

    The Pegasus Diaries: The Private Papers of Major John Howard

    Devils Own Luck: Pegasus Bridge to the Baltic 1944-45 by Denis Edwards

    There are many others of course, some of which are not so easy to come by. Hopefully others will have recommendations.

    Pte. Baines-1943.JPG

    Regards ...

    Edit: Link
     
  3. Hman

    Hman Junior Member

    Cee

    Many thanks for the information. I will see about getting those books.
     
  4. Hman

    Hman Junior Member

    It would appear the Ambrose's book is inaccurate...

    Pte Baines didn't take part in Deadstick?
     
  5. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Ambrose has been discussed on here quite a few times, by all accounts he wasn't very good at non-fiction and made stuff up :)
     
  6. BrianM59

    BrianM59 Senior Member

    I too have my doubts about Ambrose - I'm writing a book about black British soldiers and tried to follow that lead up a while back. There are some excellent Airborne historians on here and while no-one denies Baines was in the regiment and may well have taken part in fighting, as you have found, no-one has him on rolls associated with Pegasus Bridge. As for other black soldiers, no sign of them yet. Same goes for an assertion that there were black soldiers at Arnhem, a mention in Ryan's Bridge Too Far hasn't emerged either. That's absolutely not to say that they didn't exist or indeed serve and fight.

    One of the biggest problems you have with this subject is that the British Army didn't segregate black British soldiers (not the same as saying it didn't discriminate) in the same way as the US forces did, thereby engendering a huge separate history of African American involvement in the war and a comparative silence here. There is material on African and Caribbean soldiers - Commonwealth forces as it were, but the indigenous black population of Britain in 1939 was probably between 10 and 20,000 in a population of say 45 million? In terms of fighting men, I did a rough calculation of the men of fighting age 1939-45 that gives you about one man per regiment and it's less likely in Britain, unlike America, that those men would have been placed in logistical or non-combat roles.

    I have gleaned most of what I have over the years from sources in London, Liverpool, Bristol and Cardiff, the historical centres of black immigration - but the 15 or so black soldiers - most anonymous, have emerged from this forum: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/36137-black-british-soldiers/ and associated threads.
     
    brithm likes this.
  7. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Hi Howard,

    Your link just led me back here. Is this the thread on WWIIReenacting.co.uk you meant? Pte. Baines great granddaughter, Kellie Neal, left an email addy for anyone wishing more info.

    http://www.wwiireenacting.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31480

    A Pte. Baines figure that someone created can be seen here.

    http://www.accionunoseis.org/viewtopic.php?t=3466&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

    Later ...
     
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  8. BrianM59

    BrianM59 Senior Member

    Have e-mailed Pte Baines' granddaughter and will be in touch if anything transpires.
     
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  9. Hman

    Hman Junior Member

    BrianM59

    Thanks for that. It would be good to fill in the the gap in the history.
     
  10. BrianM59

    BrianM59 Senior Member

    An appeal to everyone who knows about Airborne really - Pte Baines' granddaughter has agreed to meet up and although I can't get down to Surry right away, I will definitely speak to her as soon as possible. She has his service record, medals and photographs, so anything about Pte.Baines that people can direct me to or provide copies of from the airborne end would be great - and I thought polite to exchange. I'll happily pay any expenses incurred and I will post what I can in return if she agrees. I will keep in touch on this one - I did say to her that if it weren't for people on forums like this - and particularly WW2 Talk, we couldn't write the history of individuals like her granddad. I can PM people if that's OK? His name was Anthony Charles Baines, by the way, which I personally prefer to 'Darkie' .
     
  11. Jonathan Ball

    Jonathan Ball It's a way of life.

    As Cee has stated you will not find a better book than the one by our friend, Neil Barber. Its without doubt the definitive account and highlights once more how laughably poor the Ambrose book is.

    On another note no account of the Bridges is complete without reference to the actions of the 7th Parachute Battalion in Le Port and Benouville. Although it's hard to get hold of I would recommend the book by Barbara Maddox The Tale of Two Bridges which is based around the diaries of the Battalion Commander, Lt. Col Geoffrey Pine-Coffin.
     
  12. HighTow

    HighTow Junior Member

    Regarding Darkie Baines,

    Many, many years ago on another formative GPR forum the discussion came up and I shared this nuggest of information I found on a bulletin board.

     
  13. BrianM59

    BrianM59 Senior Member

    Thanks for that HighTow. The prevailing wisdom seems to be that he wasn't on the first glider at the bridge, but came in later with the rest of the glider lift -so that's going to be an interesting conversation when I meet his granddaughter? Presumably she has read Ambrose, but I will of course ask her.
     
  14. brithm

    brithm Senior Member

    I am wondering whether Baines came with Ox & Bucks group later in the morning 6th June with the main glider force.

    F/Sgt. Littlemore, 297 Squadron, towed Horsa glider Chalk Number 38 contained 28 men from 2nd (Airborne) Oxfordshire & Buckinghamshire Bn which left as part of the third wave of Operation Tonga. If Wally Parr's story is accurate this would be more likely. The glider was released early and landed at the edge of Ranville in a playing field. [Glider Pilots S/Sgt. Corry & S/Sgt. Wright].

    Brithm
     
  15. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Ok I'll play devil's advocate ... :P

    That's curious as I just assumed the only Oxf and Bucks to go in early D-Day was the Coup-de-Main party (1st wave, 12:20 AM) with the rest of the battalion gliding in on D-Day evening (Op Mallard, 9 PM). If true it is still highly unlikely that Baines and Parr would have met before takeoff. CN 38 flew out of Brize Norton and the Coup-de-Main party left from Tarrant-Rushton.

    Regards ...
     
  16. brithm

    brithm Senior Member

    It possible but if they may have been in the same transit camp, I am really guessing now. :)

    Brithm
     
  17. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

  18. PRADELLES

    PRADELLES Well-Known Member

    Hey,

    I am not on the subject, but I found this information about Pte. Baine (no idea from where 'actionman' found this information) :

    As the first day of the landings closed, more reinforcements arrived as part of Operation Mallard, plus the rest of the 2nd Ox and Bucks including Pte ‘Darkie*’ Baines (I haven’t been able to find his first name), the only black soldier in 2 Oxf & Bucks LI. He was in ‘D’ Coy and served as a 3 inch Mortar number in the Company’s Mortar Section (handcart).

    Pte. Baines was born in Hackney in London in 1923 to Violet Baines and Father unknown.

    OSW: One Sixth Warriors

    Andy Ansell could be 'actionman' :

    WWIIReenacting.co.uk Forums • View topic - OX & BUCKS

    Regards,

    Xavier
     
  19. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    England & Wales, Civil Registration Birth Index, 1916-2005
    Name: Anthony C Baines
    Mother's Maiden Surname: Baines
    Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1923
    Registration district: Hackney
    Inferred County: Greater London
    Volume Number: 1b
    Page Number: 700

    England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
    Name: Anthony Charles Baines
    Death Age: 71
    Birth Date: 1 Apr 1923
    Registration Date: Jun 1994
    Registration district: Richmond Upon Thames
    Inferred County: Greater London
    Register Number: 24A
    District and Subdistrict: 2481
    Entry Number: 250

    TD

    edited to add:
    Anthony Charles Baines
    1923–1994
    BIRTH 01 APR 1923 • Hackney, London, England
    DEATH JUN 1994 • Richmond Upon Thames, Surrey, England

    Father: unknown
    Mother: Violet Margaret 1904 -
     
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  20. Shortybaines

    Shortybaines New Member

    Hi I'm a granddaughter of Ptr Baines he was in Palestine between 1944-46
     

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