Exactly! you put your finger on it. The Americans took a long timw to discover that it is better to fight your way through on Omaha. Rather than wait in the vain hope that something will happen to do it for you..... In the end the realisation came to them on the beach, only the dead and dying belong here, they then forced a way off......Why not earlier? why wait for that carnage that took place. No matter the fire, the only way to stop it? is to rid yourselvse of those that cause it..... The Americans could learn a Lesson from the RUR they continued to advance through the most withering fire stseady asa rock without flinching. Sapper
Mike Rehm of the 5th Rangers had been huddled beneath the shingle bank for two hours or more with a group of men when Cota appeared. In one of his legendary encounters of the day, the general demanded who they were. Rangers, he was told. "Then, godammit, if you're Rangers get up and lead the way!" exploded Cota. The men began to thrust four-foot lengths of bangalore torpedo beneath the wire ahead, locking them together until they could blow up a gap. In front, the entire hillside was wreathed in smoke from the blazing undergrowth. Coughing and choking, the Rangers realized they could not run through it, but at last they pulled on their gas masks and groped forward. Some 35 men reached the metalled road at the top of the hill . Covered by 60mm mortars firing at such short range that the tubes were almost vertical, they began to work slowly westwards. There were now Americans behind some of the most dangerous German positions covering the beach. Brig. General Raymond Cota was instrumental in getting U.S. troops moving off Omaha beach, and later advancing further inland.
Originally posted by sapper@Aug 30 2005, 05:41 AM Exactly! you put your finger on it. The Americans took a long timw to discover that it is better to fight your way through on Omaha. Rather than wait in the vain hope that something will happen to do it for you..... In the end the realisation came to them on the beach, only the dead and dying belong here, they then forced a way off......Why not earlier? why wait for that carnage that took place. No matter the fire, the only way to stop it? is to rid yourselvse of those that cause it..... The Americans could learn a Lesson from the RUR they continued to advance through the most withering fire stseady asa rock without flinching. Sapper [post=38356]Quoted post[/post] I suppose there is only one way to go and that is forward however you have my admiration Sapper as I would have been scared Sh****ss. I would assume that I would not have been alone in this assumption.
Originally posted by spidge@Aug 29 2005, 07:39 PM Was this the General portrayed by Robert Mitchum in the movie "The Longest Day"? Did they actually use the Bangalore torpedes as seen to gain that move? I am usually a bit wary of what I see in a movie, especially a "Hollywood". Love the action however "The Licence" leaves a lot of myths to be corrected later. [post=38373]Quoted post[/post] Hello, spidge Robert Mitchum did play General Cota in "The Longest Day". As far as I know the bangalore torpedoes used in the movie were authentic.
The torpedos, standard practice. the only way to remove the wire. On being scared of action? Any man that says he is not scared stupid, is a liar in my book. It is the courage to overcome that fear that makes brave fighting men. The mouth dries, the skin gets cold and clammy, fear can give a lump in your throat.... I will be honest. I have been very frightened at times, but fear has "Stages" There can be ordinary fear right the way through to mind boggling fear, then! it takes a huge physical effort to get out of your fox hole. But it is wrong to show fear in front of your mates! all service men know that.So you are all in it together. I would love to tell you how brave I was, but no, in action I was as scare as the next man. And friends, I can still recall that fear, very clearly indeed. Sapoer
A question for Sapper. I have read that even at the end of April 1944, there were still basic disagreements between US V Corps and 1st Army over the timing of the Omaha beach landings because V Corps wanted the engineers to land up to an hour before the first infantry assault wave to clear obstacles. They were overruled. Also, many of the army engineers assigned to beach clearance had not been specifically trained for the task by then and some of the navy team members lacked even basic demolitions training. All in all, it was a very weak aspect of the American operation. My question is, how well trained were the British engineers for the task of beach clearance?
Hi Angie. The tides played a big part in the invasion timing, for it takes quite a while for the tide to run along the coast. Now Angie. The beach clearance training. The Assault landing training, the three Special Royal Engineer teams, tasked with opening up the beach. The training for the invasion began back in 1942, though iy was just normal training, the company took part in many exercises, including a run down the French Coast, then back to the Isle of Wight. Most of the training for the invasion took place in Scotland, often in severe weather conditions. In March 1943 the company went off to Scotland around the following areas, Troon, Kirkcudbrightshire, Kyles of Bute, Invarary, Argyle, Teinabruich, Blind mans bay, Morayshire, Moffat. Gordonstoun, Kinloss, Burghead, Findhorn,and Cuibin sands, All that time the company prepared for the invasion, and attacked “mock ups” they marched for miles with the Beehive explosive charges on their backs Dummy invasions. You name it…The company did it, All in preparation for the coming assault on the beaches of North West Europe. In May 1944 the company moved to the South Coast in readiness. Most of this information about places I got from the late Captain Edwards of my company, Bless Him, he kept a record of the places the company went to. The Company task was to be a vital one, it was essential that the beach to the road should be opened no matter what, and that was what the training was about, the ability to blow anything that stood in the way. No matter what! In the actual landing, all went well, resulting in a rare honour of being named in the Royal Engineers History. The actual invasion timing was planned as follows, 1 the DD tanks 2 the RE assault teams then everything piles in. but the RE got there first and made the place safe for the in coming troops. I did read somewhere, a little passage that said “when we arrived we found the Gallant REs had prepared the way”. The REs were held in great respect both by infantry and armour,,,,We never turned a request down. The Captains Words! Rest in Peace old comrade. Sapper
Thank you Sapper. So it looks to me that although many decisions about when, where etc. had yet to be taken, relevant and realistic training began even long before actual invasion planning. This to me is of key importance, because it meant that effective teams could be built and they could gain the skills they would need later. It then becomes a relatively straightforward task to apply the teamwork and skills to the specific task in hand.
As im sure Brian will tell you, you only have to look at how many LC's were lost in the landings at Sword to know it was no cake walk. Brian mentions in his book the numbers, and its not infront of me at present, but something like 28 out 39 Brian? Ike and Bradley met Hobart in January 44 along with Monty (Hobart's brother inlaw if memory serves) after seeing all of the funnies in action the US commanders only took the DD's. Old over cautious stick in the mud Monty took them all. Andy
As a discussion about Omaha is starting "off topic" on another thread, this is to "bump" this one to the top so that we can continue it here.
First off Sapper. Hats off you to mate, not sure i could have gone in to the D Day beaches before everyone else. As to Omaha, i have the honour of knowing a veteran DEMS gunner who trough a string of adventures (most involving women from what i could work out) ended up piloting an American LC into Omaha throughout the day. This tale is the only time Bill stops smiling, so you know how bad it was. He particularly talks about the 2nd or 3rd run into the beach when the flak is heavy and the soldiers he is taking in refuse to leave the craft, leaving him high and dry off the beach getting the crap shot out of him. At this point the American sergeant takes the boats machine gun and turn it on his own men, driving them off into the water by the simple of expedient of shooting at their feet until they moved. Bill then goes on to say that none of those men, including the sergeant, got off Omaha alive. Bill ran that LC back and forth from ship to beach all day, and each time he got back to the ship he had to rebandage his hand after getting hit by shrapnel. After listening to all of the arguments, i think with hidnsight it is easy to see that the Americans should have sent in demolitions crews first like the Britsh did. But hindsight is a wonderful thing, isn't it?
I would just like to add that whether Funnies were available or not, Omaha WAS a difficult nut to crack and the boys that went on to that beach, as well as the rest of the Allied Armies who landed on all the beaches deserve Total Respect for the way they laid their lives on the line. I dont think I would have been able to do what they did. I dont think the US army AT THE TIME (For emphasis, not shouting) took Hobart's funnies seriously but following the initial landings they saw them in a different light. Indeed they werent slow to fit Sherman Tanks with specific Instruments such as the device to cut through the Bocage. As far as I know it was an American Tanker who came up with that Idea.
Thank you for your views. I have the benefit of a fine memory.Thank heavens I am far from becoming a doddery old buzzard. Yet ! But I do recall that the Americans spurned the offer of Hobarts Funnies. mainly it appeared to us as a bit of typical Yankee Gong Ho...Not a bad thing at times, the Amercican attitude. But there are time when a bit of hard headed thinking would have paid huge dividends. Obviously some of those AVREs would have come under fire from the enemy, and some most certainly would have been lost. But can you imagine for a moment, the mayhem that the tank with a dustbin muzzle on the front had lobbed just one mortar (As big as a dustbin) over the top of the cliffs at Omaha? It would have wiped out all the defensive positions and everything else with it. A delightful weapon, I have witness the effect of a bloody great mortar, as big as a dustbin flopping down on top of an enemy held position. BANG! We found the Americans great comrades in arms, and I will never hear a word said against them. But For all those young men that need not have died at Omaha, I feel they were wronged. They were on that beach being slaughtered, had they the same set up with dedicated assault mine clearing and "Demolition teams" RE teams. Men prepared to overcome any resistance, and from any direction. In the event, from what I read, they cobbled together a team to get off the beach. but only after a dreadful slaughter had taken place. They were our comrades in arms, but not prepared for what was to come. That is a terrible shame. Those young men remain with me the same as our own. Sapper
(sapper @ Feb 13 2006, 05:37 AM) [post=45753]Obviously some of those AVREs would have come under fire from the enemy, and some most certainly would have been lost. But can you imagine for a moment, the mayhem that the tank with a dustbin muzzle on the front had lobbed just one mortar (As big as a dustbin) over the top of the cliffs at Omaha? It would have wiped out all the defensive positions and everything else with it. A delightful weapon, I have witness the effect of a bloody great mortar, as big as a dustbin flopping down on top of an enemy held position. BANG! [/b] I hardly think a mortar with a range of only a paltry 80 yards is going lob a round anywhere near a cliff much less up over one. You could throw a grenade much further than that. I would be afraid the round would simply fall back down on me. I do think it would offer one big fat target for an 88 in which it had no chance of taking out, you can imagine what the bull-eye insignia on the side of it looked like through the optics of an 88. The German gunner could use it to zero his gun. But, I do admit that it probably did work very well for an uncontested beach. If a big mortar lobbed on an enemy position impressed you, you should have took a little time to drive up to the US front lines and see what 500 lb bombs falling from P-47s did to reinforced positions and heavy armor. It didn’t have to get within 80 yards to launch its ordinance. If you managed to get that close, why not just ask the enemy to surrender since you were close enough to be certain he was out of anti-tank ammo of all types?
Jimbo, I hardly think that Gold Juno and Sword were uncontested. you may need to refer to some reading materials on the subject if that is what you think.
Sword Beach, was by far the heaviest defended beach anywhere on the invasion coast. Bar none! I know that will not sit easily with some here, but it is the truth. If in any doubt? Research Morris and Hillman and all the other positions. Did it not occur to any here? that the armour that landed on Gold and Sword and Juno did so under the very noses of the 88s? What ever makes anyone think that the British had it easy? That fact that they did not crow about it? That is not unusual they do not even tabulate casualties, only what was acheived and how....It is unusual, but I did manage to find when I was wounded the first time in some papers. (8th of Augusr) Unusual, in that the British army does not tak about who gets killed but more in the line of disecting the operations. Sapper
It's not actually very often I dislike someone's attitude so much as to say it, but jimbotosome's is one of them. None of the beaches were unopposed. And to say so is being very disrespectful to the soldiers that fought and died on those beaches. I take it he wasn't on any of them or indeed had to take any position opposed in conflicts past or present. Beach landings are notoriously difficult. The fact that his assumption that the demolition gun on the AVRE's may be correct doesn't bring the conclusion that any of the 'funnies' wouldn't have helped. Indeed, the 'funnies' were each developed to counter a specific predicted threat. Each project was researched, developed and tested to meet that threat and many that failed to do it were scrapped. The Americans knew what they were going to encounter. They had every opportunity to develop their own 'funnies' that could do the job. Firing grapnels, hedgehog type mortars to get firepower on top of the cliffs, smoke generators or a myriad of other possibilities. They decided against it and went with infantry in strength. It worked, but at a very high cost. Could it have been different? Who knows. But to say that other beaches were unopposed just because your losses may have been higher is disrespectful and from the evidence just wrong.
There is just one thing I would add, and it is this: on the run in, we lost the officers that had everything at their fingertips. We also lost those in charge of Pegasus bridge ops. But as a war time Royal Engineers document pointed out. Despite the utter chaos caused by the loss of those in charge, the training was sufficiently ingrained, that men went on carrying out their duties despite the utter chaos and disruption caused by the casualties. The Colonel of the Royal Engineers was killed when his landing craft came under close anti-tank fire. Only the first Flail tank was discharged, the second flail was hit and jammed at the ramp door, while another hit on a Bangalore torpedo caused an explosion on board killing Lt Col A.B.D. Cocks RE CRE 5th Assault Regiment Royal Engineers, in command of all beach clearance and gapping teams You may find it interesting, that due to their fine example on D Day, 246 Field Company. Royal Engineers has a special mention in the annals of the Royal Engineers Military History. Sapper
(jimbotosome @ Feb 13 2006, 02:52 PM) [post=45758](sapper @ Feb 13 2006, 05:37 AM) [post=45753]Obviously some of those AVREs would have come under fire from the enemy, and some most certainly would have been lost. But can you imagine for a moment, the mayhem that the tank with a dustbin muzzle on the front had lobbed just one mortar (As big as a dustbin) over the top of the cliffs at Omaha? It would have wiped out all the defensive positions and everything else with it. A delightful weapon, I have witness the effect of a bloody great mortar, as big as a dustbin flopping down on top of an enemy held position. BANG! [/b] I hardly think a mortar with a range of only a paltry 80 yards is going lob a round anywhere near a cliff much less up over one. You could throw a grenade much further than that. I would be afraid the round would simply fall back down on me. I do think it would offer one big fat target for an 88 in which it had no chance of taking out, you can imagine what the bull-eye insignia on the side of it looked like through the optics of an 88. The German gunner could use it to zero his gun. But, I do admit that it probably did work very well for an uncontested beach. If a big mortar lobbed on an enemy position impressed you, you should have took a little time to drive up to the US front lines and see what 500 lb bombs falling from P-47s did to reinforced positions and heavy armor. It didn’t have to get within 80 yards to launch its ordinance. If you managed to get that close, why not just ask the enemy to surrender since you were close enough to be certain he was out of anti-tank ammo of all types? [/b] I don't know if you have ever seen a European Beach but in a lot of cases 80 yards is quite sufficient. I also doubt that you have ever thrown a live Hand Grenade as 80yards is a lot further than I have seen one thrown. I take it you haven't read much about D Day because the one thing none of the allies did was send GA fighters against beach bunkers because, yes you've guessed it they would have killed more of our side than the Germans. In addition the main bunkers were bomb proof from the air. Last but not least, if the Petard was so bad a weapon why did the US Army mount a version on their engineer tanks up until the 1970's when M60's used them.
