Occupation of unoccupied zone - France

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by Robert-w, May 29, 2020.

  1. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    2020-05-29 23.40.13.png Same ornate doorway ?

    2020-05-29 23.36.14.png 2020-05-29 23.35.53.png
     
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  2. Correct, because of the advertisement, cf my post #11.
     
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  3. Attached Files:

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  4. JimHerriot

    JimHerriot Ready for Anything

    The second photo in your series of four Robert is most definitely Marseille, as corroborated by Owen's post #17 above.

    Kind regards, always,

    Jim.
     
  5. JimHerriot

    JimHerriot Ready for Anything

    Premier Michel, peut etre Prima?

    Bravo!

    Kind regards, always,

    Jim.
     
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  6. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member


    Give what up?

    Are you stating that the information in #Post 2 is misleading or incorrect?

    I think you ought to have searched a little deeper for the reason why the division was highlighted in Toulouse.

    The 7th Panzer Division after its mauling in Russia was deployed back to France in May 1942 for refitting,a practice that appears to have been common with other German units so affected.

    Unfortunately I cannot find the base recorded (which would have been in the occupied zone) that the division was refitting at.The frame showing evidence of the division entering Toulouse would have been when it was on the move from the occupied zone to the Vichy zone.(Toulouse was in the Vichy zone until 11 November 1942.)

    Then checking with Samuel W Mitcham Jr's work Panzer Legions.A Guide to the German Army Tank Divisions of World War 11,he reveals the following,which agrees with Post #2.

    Mitcham states "As a result of losses on the Eastern Front,the division was sent back to southern France in May 1942 .In November that year,it took part in the occupation of Vichy France driving all the way to Marseille and Toulon"

    That suggests to me that the frame showing the division entering Toulouse was taken when the division was in transit to its new deployment in Marseille and Toulon.
     
  7. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    The division was sent by rail in mid-May 1942 to France in the area between Nantes and Bordeaux.

    In August 1942 the division moved to the Angers - Cholet area.

    After OP Torch, 8-16 Nov ´42 the division marched via Cognac - Bazas into Vichy France to the area Pergignan and Narbonne

    (Operation Lila, 27 Nov ´42)
    From there the division marched to the staging area around Aix-en-Provence to take possession of the naval port of Toulon

    After taking Toulon, the division finally collected between Marseille and Avignon.

    On 22 December 1942 of the division returned to the eastern front

    Google Maps
     
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  8. AB64

    AB64 Senior Member

    Some great research here that seems to help out with the original question - also good to see such heartfelt gratitude from the OP to those who spent time providing answers :whistle:
     
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  9. JimHerriot

    JimHerriot Ready for Anything

    Well I'd been holding off on this, but I very much hope it will raise a smile in all (yes all!) quarters.

    The very extremity of irony methinks that the (Owen's!) identification of the location of photo two in Robert's series as without doubt being in Marseille was the large advertising poster within said picture (and the "polka-dot" border) that promotes hearing aids.

    And whilst I'll readily admit to needing one, hopefully other parties may too. I live in hope!

    Kind regards, increasingly Mutt n' Jeff,

    Jim.
     
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  10. Gary Tankard

    Gary Tankard Well-Known Member

    Is it safe to post? :D

    There are some assumptions here that all the photos are of the same unit, same unit, same time. I don't think they are.

    I believe the second and third photos are in Marseille but are of 10. Panzer Division, not 7. Panzer Division.

    There are numerous photos of this units march through Marseille, specifically Panzer Regiment 25 and Kradschützen Batallion 11. For example, this Panzer II matches the config of those in photo 3 as does the cobbled road and tramlines.

    10Pz.jpg

    Regards,
    Gary.
     
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  11. Gary Tankard

    Gary Tankard Well-Known Member

    If photos 1 and 4 were taken during the occupation of Vichy France (and the Panzer IV D or E might suggest it might have been earlier - you'd have to get the tank allocation reports to check) here is the march route and operations of the division courtesy of 7. Panzer Division history. It's in German but easy enough to work out.

    7Pz3.jpg 7Pz2.jpg
     
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  12. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Just to point out I never said they were all taken at the same time in the same place of the same unit.
    I pointed out the unit insignia on the side-car in one photo & location of another photo.

    Just wanted to make that clear.
    :)
     
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  13. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    Had similar thoughts...
    Imagined the depicted Mk IV L/24 and MK II were shot earlier than the ones at Marseilles and Toulon:
    Around September ´42 the 7. Panzer-Division received 35 Pz III/J , 14 Pz III/N und 30 Pz IV/G
    Pictorial evidence shows Mk III J/N with 5-cm L/60 and Mk IV G with 7,5-cm L/43 at Toulon
     
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  14. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Attached Files:

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  15. Gary Tankard

    Gary Tankard Well-Known Member

    I know. :)

    I come in peace. :-P
     
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  16. Gary Tankard

    Gary Tankard Well-Known Member

    The Panzer II's were still in the regimental battalion HQ of Panzer Regiment 25 (and maybe battalion ones). They reappear in Tunisia where at least one was knocked out.
     
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  17. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    from initial post no 1, pg 1
    upload_2020-5-29_13-53-27.png

    Original made by PK Bildberichter Langhaus, PK 696, November 1942, Toulon
    Bundesarchiv - Bilddatenbank
    row 4, pic 3 from left
     
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  18. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

  19. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Samuel W Micham Jr in his work gives comprehensive detail of the new kit that the 7th Panzer Division received on refitting...one point noted was that all the tanks were of German manufacture and not of former Soviet tanks.His publication appears to be quite informative on Panzer divisions.

    Bundesarchiv again in #37 proves what a qualified source it is.
     
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  20. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    "You say a big word calmly" :lol::lol:
    Goethe/Iphigenie auf Tauris
     
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