Northumberland Hussars - Ellis Race 1134883

Discussion in 'Searching for Someone & Military Genealogy' started by Belly, Jan 12, 2009.

  1. Belly

    Belly Engage the enemy more closely

    Hi All

    I’m trying to find any information with regards to my wife’s late grandfather, Ellis Race, service number 1134883. He served as a gunner in the Northumberland Hussars early 1942 to 1946 seeing action in El Alamein, Sicily, Normandy, Holland and Germany.

    I’ve sent for his service records so hopefully that may tell me what “Battery” he was in, etc. My local library is trying to get a copy of “History of the Northumberland Hussars Yeomanry 1924-49” so I can try and piece his service together…

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=71&pictureid=582

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=71&pictureid=582


    Mean time any info would be gratefully received :rolleyes:

    Cheers

    Paul
     
  2. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    Hi Belly and welcome to the Forum.

    I've actually got this book, so will see if I can dig anything out for you.

    Although they kept their Northumberland Hussars title, they were the 102nd Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal Artillery attached to the 50th Infantry Division.

    I'll come back to you tomorrow either way.

    Regards - Robert
     
  3. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    Belly

    unless you were killed, wounded, a prisoner of war, decorated or took part in some significant action, your name did not appear in the history of the northumberland hussars 1924 - 49 by joan bright. The only way to find out more about your relative is to wait for the service records that you have applied for.

    The nh were nicknamed the “noodles”. This was a disparaging name given due to the decorative nature of their hussar uniform. They kept it with pride.

    During ww2, the northumberland hussars sustained a high proportion of casualties. 214 killed, 423 wounded and 517 prisoners of war. The author of the history acknowledged that she may have missed a few names due to the inaccessibility of some of the relevant documents. As the history of this unit is quite complicated, i will list approximate dates, unit names and whereabouts.

    At the outbreak of war in 1939, the northumberland hussars yeomanry were a territorial cavalry unit. There were a, b & c squadrons.

    In february 1940, the unit were told they were to be converted into a royal artillery unit. They chose to become an anti-tank unit. They were allowed to continue to wear the northumberland hussar badges and for the name to be incorporated into it’s new title. By april 1940, all of the horses were gone.

    They came under command 2nd armoured division and due to the type of set-up became the 102nd (northumberland hussars) anti-tank and light anti-aircraft regiment, royal artillery. A & b batteries became laa gunners and c & d batteries, anti-tank gunners.

    From november 1940 to february 1941 they were in egypt. Due to a further reorganisation, "a" battery, which became 274 (northumberland hussars) light anti-aircraft battery, were taken away from them and moved to the 25th laa regiment, but retained the nh moniker within their title. "b" battery was then retrained to become an anti-tank battery and the entire unit became anti-tank until the end of the war.

    In march 1941, b, c & d batteries went to greece and withdrew to crete in april. When the island was captured, over 200 men became prisoners of war and the rest had escaped back to egypt by the end of april.

    The nh were reinforced with the 4th rhodesian anti-tank battery (most were absorbed into d battery) and disbanded troops from the 2nd mountain regiment. The unit stayed in the western desert until march 1942, when the batteries were split up. D battery went to the 4th rha, b battery to the 107th (south notts hussars) rha and c battery to the 2nd rha.

    In september 1942, the regiment was reformed. B battery returned from the 107th rha and became regimental headquarters. C battery reurned from 2nd rha and became 288th battery. D battery returned from 4th rha and became 289th battery. Two new anti-tank batteries would join from the uk. The 99th and the 107th anti-tank batteries.

    In october 1942, the nh came under command of the 50th (northumbrian) division and were to take part in the el-alamein campaign. From february to april 1943 they were in tripolitania and tunisia.

    From the end of april to the end of october 1943 they were in sicily and were told that they would return to the uk.

    The nh returned to the uk in november 1943 and embarked on training for the following year’s invasion of europe. They took part in operations from normandy to holland. When the 50th (northumbrian) division was disbanded at the end of november 1944, the nh were put under command of the 15th (scottish) division.

    When germany was defeated, the nh was one of the last royal artillery regiments to be broken up and they were disbanded in december 1946.

    The 274th (northumberland hussars) battery joined the 25th laa regiment and it’s path vertually mirrored that of it’s former sister batteries.

    Before the disbandment of the anti-tank regiment, they were to be reformed and affiliated to the 15th/19th kings royal hussars. This was carried out in 1947 under command of lt. Col t. Eustace-smith, a former commanding officer of 274th battery.

    Trust this was of some use. Feel free to come back to me when you have some further info about which battery your relative served.

    Regards - robert:)
     
  4. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Bit about them here.

    RA 1939-45 102 A/Tk Rgt

    Going by that photo I'd say he was in 'A' battery.
    The 46 refers to the TAC sign carried on their vehicles.
    46 being the sign for the Divisional Anti-tank regiment.
    This site will explain that.

    Infantry Division Vehicle Markings

    That photo was taken when they were in 15th Scottish Div.
    See the lion rampant Div sign.

    See the 17 Pdr armed Archers parked up behind them.
     
  5. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    It was the info from that site that led me to buy the nh book. My Dad was in 102 LAA and for a time 102 (northumberland hussars) anti-tank had both laa and a/tk battries, so I thought he served there. As a result, my early research led me to buy a very expensive book for the wrong info. I'm sure I'm not the first person that this has happened to.

    I also agree with Owen, that the picture could be "A" battery with the 46 TAC sign
     
  6. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

  7. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    Owen

    As the Northumberland Hussars badge and 15th Scottish Division badge appear on the sign, the picture must have been taken from the end of November 1944 onwards in Holland. You can also see from the pictures in Belly's album the NH Badge on the Berets instead of the RA one. They were allowed the honour of retaining this from when they were converted to an RA regiment.

    Robert
     
  8. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    I see from Ellis Race's service number it was a number allocated to Royal Artillery personnel, so he was not one of the Northumberland Hussar originals. For example, my Dad retained his Lincolnshire Regiment number when his unit converted to LAA, RA.
     
  9. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Anyone any idea what the two flags denote on the bottom of that sign?
     
  10. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    Just checked my book and "A" battery was the 99th Battery which joined the Northumberland Hussars in September 1942, which tallies with Ellis Race's service with them from 1942 until disbandment in 1946. I have also discovered that the 99th Battery was a regular battery from 20th A/Tk Regiment which served earlier in France.
     
  11. Belly

    Belly Engage the enemy more closely

    Cheers Guys

    Great info there, not only that you’ve pre-empted my next questions!

    Without pre-empting the service record too much, if the ‘A’ in the photo does represent ‘A Battery’ is it likely that he have stayed in the same battery throughout the war?

    I’m also a bit puzzled as to how the NHs would have badged their uniforms as you say they had special dispensation to retain their cap badges and I believe they also had their own Regimental flash (2 shades of pale blue) as opposed to the Royal Artillery one. Would they have worn Royal Artillery Shoulder Titles? I assume they would have also worn the ‘double T’ whilst under the 50th, changing later in the war to the 15th Scottish Lion?? Would he also have worn the AT Gunner proficiency badge (he was using 6 pounders)?

    I can’t even to begin to think about how they were badged in the desert…

    You’ve solved a mystery (I think) when you say that he’s not an ‘original’ NH but a transferee from the Royal Artillery. This I think explains why a die-hard Yorkshireman ended up under the Northumbria banner.

    Really appreciate your help so far

    Thanks

    Paul
     
  12. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Would they have worn Royal Artillery Shoulder Titles?

    Most likely, as in the Osprey MAA 187 British Battle Insignia 1939-45 by Mike Chappell, on page 21 is a picture of 64 AT Regt of 78th Div.
    They are wearing Royal Artillery arm-of-service strip above a regimental flash halved grey & black with GY on it as they were originally Glasgow Yeomanry.
    On plate B3 is a captain of 93 AT Regt of 1st Div, he wears a bonnet & Argyll's cap badge as they were originally from that regiment.
    He is shown wearing Royal Artillery shoulder titles.
     
  13. Paul Reed

    Paul Reed Ubique

    Nice photo. Aren't they Archer SPs in the background?
     
  14. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Nice photo. Aren't they Archer SPs in the background?
    Yes, see my post #4.
     
  15. Paul Reed

    Paul Reed Ubique

    Oh didn't see that - sorry, Owen.
     
  16. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    Dear All

    According to the book, A or 99th Battery used Valentine Self Propelled 17 Pounders and the other batteries towed 17 Pounders.

    I have also discovered the meaning of the two flags in the photo. It is the naval signal for "engage the enemy more closely".

    I will copy the relevent pages and post them shortly.
     
  17. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Valentine Self Propelled 17 Pounders

    The Archer is based on the hull of a Valentine.
     
  18. Belly

    Belly Engage the enemy more closely

    Thanks chaps

    I've posted a better picture of the 17 pounders:

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=71&pictureid=583

    Ellis alway used to complain about the switch to the self propelled stuff, he enthused about the 6 pounder!
     
  19. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    Owen

    I have no expertise on this equipment, so bow to your superior knowledge.

    Here are pics from the book and the page containing the info on how the NH retained their badge and title and the info re the flags in the photo.

    Robert
     

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  20. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    Owen

    Congrats on reaching 10,000 posts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    R
     
    Owen likes this.

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