Non-standard, substitute standard, and captured weapons in British and Commonwealth service

It certainly does!

....and here's one I fired earlier (about thity years earlier!)

Regards
TonyE

 

http://cas.awm.gov.au/screen_img/013971



This picture of Australian troops was taken on the Buna-Sanananda front. Some time ago we were wondering if the rifle carried by the man behind the Bren gunner was a No. 4 Enfield or an Arisaka. TonyE, our ace firearms man, voted for the No. 4. I was skeptical, because as far as I knew the No. 4 was not an Australian weapon (They stuck to the SMLE). As usual, though, Tony was right. It seems that some batches of No. 4's were sent to Australia, where most of them wound up with the RAAF. While the No. 4 didn't get into general service until well into 1942, some of the sniper versions (No. 4 (T)) were issued earlier. A few were used by 9th Australian Division in Tobruk, while others saw action with 8th Army snipers. It is possible that some of these No. 4 (T)'s went back to Australia with the AIF in 1941-42. According to Glenn Wahlert (second link, below), Australian troops liked the No. 4 sights and later in the war commando units often included a quota of No. 4's as standard sharpshooting weapons. So our rifleman at Sanananda is indeed carrying a No. 4, either the plain version issued to the RAAF or a sniper version with the scope removed. Good call Tony.

Here are the relevant links:
Surplusrifle Forum • View topic - Change from smle to no.4
Use of Brit SMLE No.4 Mk.1 T by Aust Army in WWII [Archive] - Military Surplus Collectors Forums

 

Hi,

Is a post coming up on the red banded M1s ?

I've never seen any pictures of CW troops with them.

Thanks

 

Hi,

Is a post coming up on the red banded M1s ?

I've never seen any pictures of CW troops with them.

Thanks

That is on my list. I have not found out much about them, nor do I think anyone else has either. The whole topic is mysterious.

I checked a recent Osprey series book about the M1, which stated that a maximum of 38,000 M1's were delivered to Britain. This work (wish I could recall the author) said that the true figure may have been only around 20,000. I believe a few went to the Home Guard at some point--HG reenactor groups say M1's are OK for members depicting certain periods--and maybe to the RAF, if my memory is correct. A great many were not used at all and remained in storage. They are highly prized collector's items.

But the M1 was used by a number of CW forces. The most conspicuous of these was the 1st Special Service Force (Devil's Brigade), a mixed US-Canadian command that used the full range of US infantry weapons as well as some odd types like the Johnson LMG and the T30 self-propelled 75mm howitzer. The 6th Canadian Division (Canadian Army Pacific Force) did not get into action, but it adopted standard US weapons for its role in the planned invasion of Japan.

The Australians used a handful of M1's in the SWPA including M1C's, sniper versions with telescopic sights. Glenn Wahlert, a sound scholar, mentions it here: Use of Brit SMLE No.4 Mk.1 T by Aust Army in WWII [Archive] - Military Surplus Collectors Forums

Australian troops were notable weapons scavengers. Here is a picture of an Australian using a standard M1 at Buna (doubtless taken from a 32nd Division casualty):013930 | Australian War Memorial

The New Zealand-sponsored South Pacific Scouts (Fiji/Tonga Defence Force) also used M1's, but that is my next post...

 

M1 Trivia note:

I did not know this until recently but John Garand was born a British subject in St. Remi, Quebec. The family later moved to Connecticut.

 

Llama Pistols Again--Mk V with SOE?

I recently purchased a very interesting little book, World War II Secret Operations Handbook, by Stephen Hart and Chris Mann. This is essentially a compilation of material from various wartime British and Soviet manuals, together with a postwar manual by the Swiss summarizing WWII knowledge. It is an excellent book for the most part, giving the reader a lot of detailed information on the nuts and bolts clandestine and guerilla operations. It covers weapons as well, though not in as great detail as I would like. Among the weapons mentioned is the Llama Mark V pistol, made by the Spanish Gabilondo company. According to the authors, the British purchased a considerable quantity of these guns and issued them to SOE for use on the Continent.

I have several questions about this. First (and most regrettably) Hart and Moss do not give references for their information about the Mark V Llama. The gun (they say) was in caliber ".38 ACP." This is odd for several reasons. For one thing, the Colt company had replaced the original .38 ACP (and the Model 1902 and 1903 automatics which fired it) as early as the late 20's with a more powerful round and a new gun as well. The new cartridge, designated .38 Super or Super ACP, was hotter than the old .38 ACP. The .38 Super Colt pistol was a variant of the M1911 Army Model. Now, we know from other sources that the British purchased some .38 Super pistols and cartridges during the war. But things got more confusing when I tried to get more information about the Llama Mk V. A.B. Zhuk (Handguns) describes this gun as an "export version" of another Llama, the Mark IV, which had a 'tolerant' chamber that would accept 9mm Largo, 9mm Steyr, and and 9mm Parabellum. Zhuk also refers to a Mark VII, which was the same as the V (and IV?) except that it was chambered for .38 Super. To add to the confusion, the drawing of the alleged Mk V in Hart and Moss has ".380 ACP" written on the slide, and the styling of the gun looks postwar to me. I have seen photos on gun sites showing Mark V Llamas, and these are in .380, not .38 Super, and they have jazzy postwar styling. As we have seen here, British use of the Llama is obscure and poorly documented, but if anyone can shed any light on just what guns we are talking about here I would be grateful.

 

I know there was also two captured german tigers within the British army one was with the horse gaurds and was displayed in London

Also I would like to point out that Rommel used a lot of captured british vehicles as well, trucks etc one famous one was his command vehicle which was a captured british military Armoured AEC

 

Huchie

that Tiger at Horse Guards was knocked out in North Africa by a member of the 48th RTR of 21st Army Tank bde - shipped to Glasgow from Bone - down to Horse Guards then finally

to Bovington where it was restored over many years and is often seen to be running around on main visitors days

cheers

 

i have the book in my reme collection, it was in bone the same time my grandfather was there

 

Hutchie

Which book is that..? Not the rubbish whereby Churchill asked a REME Captain to capture a Tiger… if so - shred it NOW as it is mainly fiction..as I was asked to review it…the Publisher sent me a free copy…..it was shipped from Tunis by the LAD of NIH to Bone for the trip to Glasgow….and that exciting trip was absolute nonsense with the Tigers gun being fired off while chained up on deck and being attacked all the way…. rubbish….! Lots of people were in and near Bone at that time...

Cheers

 

Lol that's the one Ron, still an interesting read

 

Owen
Shouldn't be too surprised if he thinks that book is good..and he's a Scot … shhheeeesh

Cheers

 

Sorry tom didn't realise it was you I thought it was ron

 

Hutchie

I was in Tanks - Ron was in the AA at that time - later in Kangaroos...

Cheers

 

Tom

It was a misread nothing more, after a week on nightshift & very little sleep my eyesight isn't the greatest

As for the book it wasn't written by the officer himself it was written by two researchers and his son, I'm guessing we will never get the true extent and a fair bit if dramatisation after all history is written by the victor

 

Hutchie

Can well understand tiredness after night shift working…..you appear to be STILL mis-reading as I was asked to review that book and found that very little of the truth was acknowledged

by the two alleged researchers and the REME Captains son - to his shame as he was educated - as was his Father at a very prominent Catholic College - the true extent of that tale is that it was the

48th RTR which knocked out that Tiger #131 - moved to Tunis by the NIH LAD of 25th Tank Bde REME - shipped to Bone and subsequently to Glasgow - Horse Guards parade - and finally Bovington

for restoration…now THAT is the Objective truth….whilst I would agree that History is written by the victor - some History is written by so called researchers and Historians and is called fiction….

and the other cliche of " wars are not won by those who are right - but by those who are left "...

Cheers

 

In the history of the SOE Arms Section it notes that E Churchill the Gunmaker and Hugh Pollard when to Europe in mid-1940 to try and purchase arms especially pistols. This was presumably before Dunkirk. This would have been before SOE was in existence and they would have been working for Section D of SIS. By July 1940 Churchill & Pollard had gone. Unfortunately there are no details given of what was purchased. The Arms Section history then notes that a 'large quantity' of Llama pistols was purchased in 1944. No number is given unfortunately.

I have a list of small arms that were held in store in November 1945 by Force 136 operating in the Far East. On this are listed just over 3,000 .380 Llama automatics. This will be .380acp not .38 super. Very few .32acp Llamas were listed. Unless some new document shows up which has been eluding researchers for years we will never know the exact number of of the 'large quantity' of Llamas that were purchased, but I suspect it was at least 10,000. There were 8,000 Ballister Mollina pistols purchased and these do not get a specific mention in the history, only a reference to Argentina.

I have examined 3 Model 1 Llamas in 32acp all proofed in 1944 and with serial numbers close to each other. One of these in the Imperial War Museum is known to have come from an ex SOE arms store which was taken over by MI6 after the war. The other two pistols are in a military museum , but I believe these are ex SOE pistols as well. I have not seen a .380acp Llama with SOE providence but I think these would be either Model 11 or Model 111 guns, or a mixture of both.

 

The time was late 1946.

My current position was that of Tech Corporal for A Squadron, 4th Queen’s Own Hussars.

As such, I was responsible for all the ‘Technical’ stores in the Squadron which included, Tanks, Armoured Cars, Motor Vehicles of all description and the spares included thereof.

I knew that I was shortly due to be released from the Army under the current Python scheme that enabled men who had served more than 3 years 9 months abroad to be sent home and released from the forces.

Understandably, I was concerned that nothing should hinder my release and ‘nothing’ included any shortfalls in the equipment that I had previously signed for.

For some time now I had been training a young Lance Corporal to take over my place and I’d given him the task of checking the quantities of all the spares held on our Store Truck against the inventory for the same holdings. One day he reported to me that we were one verey light pistol short of the six that we were supposed to be holding according to the manifest.

The verey light pistols were held as part of a tank’s small arms store and were used, in emergencies, to either send a pre-arranged message or identify the tank’s position to other squadron members. I had even used one myself in front line action some months earlier. The short story is that I was one pistol short and I had to do something about it.

Amongst my ‘unofficial’ spares was a German very light pistol, very much the same size as it’s British counterpart but unmistakeably different to the eye. Some hard and quick thinking was called for.

I solved the problem by covering all the pistols in axle grease then wrapping them up with strips of oilskin so that only the registration number was visible. The German pistol soon had it’s own number erased and replaced by the ‘correct’ British number and the six pistols were left hanging up on adjacent hooks.

Not long after this event we had an un-scheduled inspection by a top-brass Brigadier who inspected all of the Regimental stores, including my own stores truck. He clambered up the wooden stairs of the truck and with his aide-de-camp sniffed around the stores that were on display.

His eyes caught the very light pistols and he demanded to know what these mystery parcels were.

I explained that experience had taught me that the pistols were soon affected by corrosion and so I had covered them in heavy grease but left the numbers visible for quick inspection

. "Bloody good idea Corporal !" he said and telling his sidekick to "make a note of that will you" he soon, to my great relief, clambered back down the stairs.

Almost seventy years after the event I still wonder whatever happened when the pistols were eventually unwrapped and the cuckoo in the nest was revealed !

I also wonder if the rest of the units in the Division ever had to wrap all their Verey light pistols in grease !!

Ron