Non-standard, substitute standard, and captured weapons in British and Commonwealth service

Sorry - I wasn't aware that the vehicles had to have been used in combat "I have a particular interest in non-standard, substitute, and captured weapons and equipment used by British forces (including colonial and dominion troops) during the world wars and especially in WWII"

I will see what else I can find on my hard-drive

 

Probably outside the scope of this thread, but here goes anyway (is there a better thread for this sort of stuff?)

 

Italian Artillery Types in British Service

As we all know, the British captured large amounts of Italian equipment of all kinds in the North African and East African campaigns of 1940-41. Italian equipment has often been disparaged, but some of it was quite good and it was valuable to the British in the early war years when their own forces were often short of equipment. Italian artillery was particularly useful. The Italians used dozens of different guns of disparate origins, but the British did not employ everything. I have spent some time surveying the internet for information, and as far as I can determine the following Italian models were definitely or possibly used in action by British forces. Here are the various types, with some remarks on their characteristics and use:

a) Field Guns

Cannone d'Accompagnamento R.E. 65/17 M10
Mountain gun widely used as infantry and a/tk gun (Repaired in Captured Ordnance Depot, Egypt; possible British or Australian use in Western Desert; some used by Burma Auxiliary Force in Burma)

Cannone Campale Krupp 75/27 M906
Krupp commercial pre WWI field gun type, standard divisional weapon (Repaired in Captured Ordnance Depot, Egypt; used in Tobruk and CRUSADER, probably on Crete)

Obice Campale R.E. 75/18 M34
Mountain and light field howitzer, one of the few modern types coming into service in 1940; used by motorized and some infantry formations (Possibly used by RA and RNZA on Crete)

Cannone Campale Skoda 77/28 M905/908
Skoda 76.5mm field gun designed pre-WWI, Austro-Hungarian reparations (Repaired in Captured Ordnance Depot, Egypt; used by Burma Auxiliary Force in Burma and possibly by RNZA on Crete)

Obice Campale Skoda 100/17 M14
Skoda field howitzer, Austro-Hungarian reparations, standard divisional weapon (Repaired in Captured Ordnance Depot, Egypt; likely used by British and Australians in Tobruk and on Crete)

Obice Campale Skoda 100/22 M 14/19
Post WWI Skoda modernization of M14, some modernized in Italy, others war loot from Greece, Yugoslavia, Poland, etc; used in coastal defense and by Italian Co-Belligerent force (Use by British uncertain; possibly in Sicily)

Cannone Pesante Campale Ansaldo105/28 M 13
French Schneider M1913 field/medium gun, license built by Ansaldo; excellent weapon, used by corps artillery (Repaired in Captured Ordnance Depot, Egypt; used by RA, Poles, and Czechs in Tobruk, CRUSADER)

Obice Pesante Campale Skoda 149/13 M14
Skoda medium howitzer, Austro-Hungarian reparations, standard corps artillery weapon. (Used by British and Australians in Tobruk, CRUSADER)

Cannone Pesante R.E. 149/35 M 901
Non-recoil heavy field gun; still widely used by army heavy artillery and as a mobile fortress gun by Frontier Guard (A few used by British in Tobruk)

b) Anti-Aircraft Guns

Cannone Mitragliera Controaereo Breda 20/65 M35
Breda light AA gun, widely distributed and a good weapon; also used in a/tk role. (Repaired in Captured Ordnance Depot, Egypt; widely used by British forces in N. Africa, sometimes as vehicular gun on Marmon-Herrington “Breda cars.”)

Cannone Mitragliera Controaereo Breda 37/54 M39
A modern Breda design in the Bofors class, though not as efficient. Employed mainly as a naval weapon, but some went to the army. Some guns were mounted on trucks, but it’s not clear if field or fixed ground mountings were ever developed or not. (An official US WWII source says some were employed by British forces.)

Cannone Controaereo Ansaldo 75/46 M34
A good modern light-heavy field AA weapon, also employed in the anti-tank role and on self-propelled mountings. (Repaired in Captured Ordnance Depot, Egypt; some British use in N. Africa)

Cannone Controaereo da Posizione Armstrong 76/40 M97/37
Obsolescent multi-purpose naval weapon based on RN 12 pdr 12 cwt, removed from warships and employed ashore as a dual fixed anti-aircraft and coast defense gun. Some modified with new recuperators and higher-angle mounts. (Used by British in Sicily and possibly Tobruk.)

Cannone Controaereo da Posizione Schneider 102/35 M14, M14/15
License-built Schneider dual purpose AA/coast defense gun, used in fixed mounts at defended ports (Used in Tobruk etc.)


c) Coast Defense Guns

Cannone da Posizione Skoda 149/47 M 10
Skoda WWI Austro-Hungarian naval gun, secondary armament on Viribus Unitis battleships, removed from shipboard by Italians and installed as coastal guns at Tobruk. (Tobruk pieces used by RA in both sieges.)

Obice da Posizione Armstrong 305/17 M16/17
Armstrong-Pozzuoli super-heavy coastal howitzer, some later adapted for mobile use in WWI. Employed by Frontier Guard and army heavy artillery, saw service against the French in 1940. Coastal pieces installed in defenses of Naples and Sicily. (Some Sicilian weapons turned against former owners by RA, possibly later use on mainland as well.)

d) Anti-Tank Guns

Fucile Anticarro Tipo S
The Swiss Solothurn S18/1100 20mm light AT gun/AT rifle, purchased in large numbers. Practically useless. (Some issued to 3rd Australian AT Regiment in 1941, but soon discarded.)

Cannone Anticarro Breda 47/32 M35
Austrian Böhler design manufactured by Breda, standard Italian AT gun and a good weapon in its class. (Repaired in Captured Ordnance Depot, Egypt; widely used by British, Australians, etc. in N. Africa, especially in Tobruk and CRUSADER; also used in Malaya. Some were later employed as mountain guns in Italian campaign and others were adapted for airborne use)

 

Italian tanks, Australian users, North Africa

 

More Spanish 88mm guns - this time in service during the 1960s

 

From my WTF file

1 - photo identified as a CMP (Blitz) truck with an armour upgrade and a side-mounted flamethrower in action in Malaya

2 - photo identified as a Dutch KNIL tank featuring the number 13 with the moniker of Sayeda Bint and what appears to be Desert Rat insignia (is it possibly the back end of an Archer?)

3 - I have seen this photo identified as either just before the start of war against the Japanese (1939 - 1941) or immediately after when British troops moved back in to previous British (& Dutch & French) territory

 

If you mean the driving end of an Archer I can see the resemblance but the Archer's front consisted of a central panel which was straight across, then two angled panels, and then two more angled even further back. This seems more flat.

But there is another unit insignia on the left side of the vehicle (right side of the photo) - do you have this at any higher resolution? The AoS number looks like it might be a 13, matching the larger number above - but that's not a number whose use I recognize.

But what would a Dutch tank be doing with that insignia, let alone an Archer? (Archers were not issued to armoured divisions...)

 

1, 3. As far as I know the British had no such vehicles in service in Malaya in 1941. They did have a few Lanchester six-wheeled cars, some Marmon-Herrington South Africans, and some Indian Wheeled Carriers. That was it. As for 2, whatever it is it is almost certainly postwar. For Dutch vehicles, see the Overvalvagen forum if you have not done so already.

 

Thanks Chris - as I said it was in my WTF file, nothing about it makes sense and that is literally the only and best copy of that photo I have ever seen (and of course I can't remember where I found it)

"Sayeda Bint"

 

I have had it suggested to me that the photo was taken during the early days of the Malayan Emergency in 1948- 1950

 

The first items on this bill of lading for S.S Erin from July 1940 relating to the ‘M.L. H.E. 6” Mortar’ may be of interest.

Presumably these are bombs, etc. for the Newton 6-inch mortar - Wikipedia. Anyone have any information on their actual deployment?

 

A caption in Ian Hogg's primer, The Guns 1914-18, says that the 6-inch Newton "remained in reserve stocks until the Second World War." I seem to recall hearing vaguely that the Home Guard may have had some, but I wouldn't pin myself down to that.

 

Apparently some RA units had the 6 inch mortar post-Dunkirk. See this post:
#246
Non-standard, substitute standard, and captured weapons in British and Commonwealth service

 

Thanks, I missed that one... only searched the thread for ‘6-inch’!

 

The 95mm Howitzer Mk II

The infantry gun is one of those semi-odd concepts which keep cropping up over and over again in different times and places. The Germans and the Japs were the greatest exponents of the infantry gun idea, and some Continental powers used them as well. The British dabbled with the idea between the wars, even designating one field regiment per division for 'close support' purposes. This organization did not last, but the infantry gun idea did not die out entirely in the British Army.

The 95mm Howitzer Mk I was the standard weapon on British CS tanks (Centaur, Cromwell, Churchill) in the later years of the war. From what I've read it was developed to a) replace the unsatisfactory 3" tank howitzer and b) to give British armored units a weapon comparable to the 75mm L/24 on the early Stug III and early Panzer IV. The 95mm Mk I used a barrel from the 3.7" AA gun, a 25-pdr breech, and the recoil system of the 6-pdr, and originally it was intended to fire the same ammunition as the 3.7" mountain howitzer. New ammo had to be designed after all, and even then the weapon was not very successful. The 25-lb HE shell delivered a good punch, but dispersion was excessive and accuracy mediocre. I have read that because of this some units used their 95mm CS tanks to fire smoke only. On the other hand, the Centaur CS tanks used by the RM in Normandy seem to have done a satisfactory job of support. At any rate after the 95mm was already in the works for the armor it was decided to develop a towed version of it for use as an infantry gun. The result--which did not appear until 1944 or so--was the 95mm Howitzer Mk II. This was essentially a Mk I minus the muzzle counterweight slung on to a small carriage which according to John Weeks looked like something a guy had put together in his garage. The reaction of the infantry to the IG idea was doubtful. Some felt they had enough equipment on their hands already, what with mortars, MGs, anti-tank guns, etc., when what they really needed most was more riflemen. Trials showed that the Mk II's carriage and recoil system were both heavily strained, but a couple hundred of the things were made anyway. Most accounts simply say that the Mk II was made obsolete because redundant in April 1945 and never saw action. Maybe so, but I have found a series of photos taken in Italy which suggests that the thing was at least given a combat trial. These were taken in March 1945, and show a gun crew of 13th Anti-tank Regiment using the weapon. The gunners look pretty casual and are not even wearing their helmets, but the gunpit in the photos is well dug and properly sandbagged and looks like a real frontline position. At least one 95mm Mk II still survives in Canada.

 

bit much aint it?

 

Guns of the Jewish Settlement Police (Notrim)

As per the post-1918 settlement Palestine was administered by the British under the terms of a League of Nation mandate. The acceptance of this mandate proved to be an enormous headache for the British government, though I think things might have been even worse if it had been given to the French. The territory had to be policed and from 1920 on this was done by an outfit called the British Palestine Police, which had a mix of British, Jewish, and Arab personnel. Eventually the local Jewish settlement guards came under British authority as the Jewish Settlement Police. This was the outfit from which Wingate recruited his famous Night Squads during the troubles in the late 30s. Photographic evidence shows that the JSP (Notrim plural, singular Noter I think) was given a good deal of standard British equipment, including SMLEs, P14s, Lewis guns, etc. Come the outbreak of war some of this stuff may have been given to the army (which was certainly in need of it) and wartime photos and other evidence show that the JSP bulked out its equipment with oddities of various sorts. I have recently found a 1942 JSP training manual online, and this shows that the force had a variety of non-standard handguns: the Mauser C96, the Luger P08, and the Beretta M34. The Berettas were obviously ex-Italian captures, but I suspect that many of the Mausers and Lugers at least were commercial sales or ex-Turkish stock which had been floating around in the Middle East since 1918. In support of this, I note that the Mauser is represented in both 7.63mm and 9mm calibers and the Luger is reported in both 9mm and 7.65mm. Most curious.


.

 

Back to the Half Tracks. It could be argued that the British & Commonwealth use of US half tracks is the ultimate use of a 'substitute' vehicle. Initially rejected by the British purchasing commission. Britain was developing their own wheeled armoured personnel carrier. Lend Lease vehicles accepted due to delays.... Ultimate use was in the 60s as an armoured engineering vehicle - as a substitute covering for delays in development of a purpose made vehicle. Always a Cinderella - classed as a truck not an AFV (White Scout car was an AFV).

 

Flawed though it was the US half track was certainly a far better APC than the standard Universal Carrier.

 

Checking around, it seems that the great bulk of half-tracks in British service were Internationals (M5 and M9). The lend-lease sheets preserved at Hyperwar show only a handful of M2s and M3s delivered to the British. The Hyperwar page referred to, however, does NOT in fact cover all lend-lease transactions. It omits so-called "theater transfers," which were made to non-US forces at the discretion of the theater commander. I have never seen any statistical accounting of such transfers, but they could be of considerable importance and it remains possible that additional M2s and M3s got into British hands via that route. The British also got some SP guns based on the White-Autocar M3, namely the 75mm M3 GMC, the 57mm T48 GMC, the .50 M14 GMC, and even a couple of M16 GMC quadmounts. The US-Canadian Special Service Force also picked up a few 75mm how T30 GMCs for use as private artillery. These were also on the M3 chassis. The British stripped the guns from the T48s and M14s and used them as standard half track APCs.