Non-standard, substitute standard, and captured weapons in British and Commonwealth service

Ron,

Now you have let the cat out of the bag, maybe you will receive a letter from MOD requesting compensation for the missing 'British' piece of military equipment you were in charge of :sign_oops: :innocent:

 

British Use of Vickers War Material Made for Foreign Contract

Between the wars, Vickers was a major international supplier of war material (small arms, artillery, tanks, aircraft) to foreign governments. In 1939-40, some of the items Vickers had ready for foreign governments were requisitoned for British service. The M1936 "Dutchman" light tank was one such example, and Ian Skennerton found that a number of Vickers MMGs in 7.92mm (possibly made for China?) had also been taken into the British armory.
Does anyone else know of additional examples? To cite just one area, Vickers made a wide range of field and AA artillery designs for commercial sale in calibers from 40mm to 105mm, but I haven't heard of any of these commercial guns in British service.

 

Home Guard Weapons: a Review and a Thesis

Hmm. That last posting here elicited nothing but the sound of crickets. Fortunately, I have stumbled on a very interesting thesis about Home Guard weaponry, a subject dear to the hearts of oddball weaponeers like me. Here is the link.
https://dspace.lib.cranfield.ac.uk/handle/1826/6164

The author gets some things wrong, but it is a fascinating piece nonetheless. He goes into some detail on how weapons were acquired, what their distribution was within the HG, and how the HG employed them tactically. He notes that in many ways the HG was at least as well armed as the regular forces; the US M1917 rifle, for example, was considered by many to be superior to the rather shoddily made early No. 4 rifles that the HG received in 1943.

There is quite a bit here on the strange weaponry that was so common in the HG, including some weapons I had never heard of before in British service. Apparently a small number of Colt commerical model MG38 and MG38B water-cooled MMGs wound up with the Home Guard, and there is a tantalizing hint about a Hotchkiss M1914 MMG as well. Clarke has an interesting theory about the strange genesis of the Lanchester, and he covers the .22 caliber weapons of Britain's 'secret army' extensively. He includes artillery as well, covering such oddball guns as the 13-pounder and the 6" Newton mortar. Most surprisingly, Clarke does not mention the ex-French small arms (Dunkirk salvage) in HG service. He covers shotguns, but beyond the familiar Greener police gun he does not describe the types. I had hoped for much more on the non-standard pistols in HG service, too, but you can't have everything. All in all, a valuable contribution to the subject.

[Edited to include right hyperlink]

 

Oh, hell. Link didn't work, must try again.

 

Hi TTH

I came across this site a while ago and don't know if you know of it, http://www.coleshillhouse.com/the-weapons-of-the-auxiliary-unit.php - I haven't read through the whole thread to see if its a duplicate, if it is ignore this post

TD

 

It isn't a duplicate. That is a very nice link, thanks for posting.

 

WIki says some 1895 Colt machine guns were sent over in 1940.

Colt-Browning guns placed in storage by the US military after the First World War were purchased for the British Home Guard in the summer of 1940. There were mostly later "Marlin" variants, and few appear to have reached troops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1895_Colt-Browning_machine_gun

 

Thanks for that, Dave. Yes indeed, some Colt guns were used by the Home Guard. The link in Post 183, above, has the full details. The "Colt" description in the HG was a blanket that covered several types:

1. Original Colt M1895 guns
2. M1895's heavily modified by the Marlin-Rockwell company during WWI for aircraft and tank use (sometimes called "Marlins")
3. M38 and M38B Colt commercial machine guns made during the 1930's for foreign contracts, principally from China and Latin America. The M38/38B series was completely different from the M1895 and its Marlin derivative, being essentially a commercial variant of the US Army's Browning M1917.

 

IVER JOHNSON REVOLVERS

It has been a while since I updated this thread. I recently got hold of a copy of the first edition of the late Bill Goforth's book about the Iver Johnson company's revolvers. Mr. Goforth was the leading authority on that subject. Iver Johnson made inexpensive but quality small caliber revolvers for many years. Most of these were top-break auto-ejectors. In the early years of WWII, the British government purchased several thousand Iver Johnson revolvers (I have seen various figures quoted). This is well known, but as in the case of the Llama automatic pistols there is not much information about the models and subtypes obtained. The Imperial War Museum has a number of Iver Johnsons in its collection, but gives maddeningly little data about them. One of these is a late example of .38 top break Safety Automatic Hammer revolver (third model). Alan David of Sydney has a .32 Iver Johnson Safety Auto Hammer, as well as a .38 US Revolver Company Hammerless made by Iver Johnson. All these have the broad arrow marking. Unfortunately, this edition of Goforth's book does not tell me much more. Goforth says (p. 21) that in 1941 Iver Johnson shipped every .38 revolver they had in the factory to the UK and the NEI. At that time, Iver Johnson made the following revolvers in .38:

1. Safety Automatic Hammer (third model)
2. Model 1900 (solid frame)

Several other .38 models had been discontinued between the mid-20's and the mid-30's, but it is possible that some examples were still held by the company.

1. Safety Automatic Hammerless (third model)
2. US Revolver Company Hammer
3. US Revolver Company Hammerless

The company also made a range of .22 revolvers, but as far as I know none were ever sold to foreign governments. Some .32's were included in the shipments to Britain. Besides the .32 Safety Hammer mentioned above, the Safety Automatic Hammerless and US Revolver Company Hammer and Hammerless models were all made in .32. Some of these models were also discontinued in the 1930's but may have been around in the factory. The caliber was apparently .32 S&W or .32 short, a different and less powerful round than the more modern .32 S&W Long. However, the Model 1900 was made in .32 S&W Long. Iver Johnson also made a ".32 Special" variation of the large-frame Safety Automatic Hammer model. This was chambered for .32 S&W Long, but was not made in such great numbers as other Iver Johnson models.

I realize that this isn't much, but if anyone has any more information about the British IJ's I'd be happy to hear it. Unfortunately Mr. Goforth is no longer with us.

 

Where one finds Iver Johnsons you usually find Harrington and Richardsons. Any info on them in UK service?

 

HARRINGTON & RICHARDSON REVOLVERS

Dave, there doesn't appear to be much on H&R's. I referred to what I had learned on an earlier post on this thread. As far as I know, only three models of H&R revolver were used by the British. The most common was the H&R "Bobby" model, a .32 top-break designed and made specifically for British police forces. H&R also made a .38 top break eventually known as the Defender. This was widely issued in the US to defense plant guards, air raid wardens and so forth. It was also purchased by the inter-Allied committee reponsible for arming merchant ships, and some found their way into service with the Merchant Navy via that route. Some .22 caliber Sportsman revolvers were acquirred in the UK by the 'chief of constabulary' and so presumably were given to the police as well. Here is what the IWM has on a Defender in its collection. http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30031176

 

CAPTURED ITALIAN ARMS IN INDIA, AUSTRALIA, AND AFRICA

Here is an interesting thread about the use of captured Italian weapons (specifically Carcano rifles and carbines and Breda MGs) in Australia, the NEI, India, and Africa. There is also a little more on the still curious case of the Australian .303 Dutch Mannlicher conversion, as well as information on other oddball rifles in WWII service like the Ross, M1888 and M1895 Austrian Mannlichers, the Martini-Henry, the Vetterli, and even the Snider (!).

http://forums.gunboards.com/archive/index.php/t-5283.html

 

MAS 36 AND OTHER FRENCH ARMS WITH HOME GUARD?

Thanks to the late and much lamented Tony Edwards, I have learned that large quantities of French small arms were used by the Home Guard in the months immediately after the evacuation of French troops to the UK from Dunkirk. Apparently the types definitely issued to the HG included the Lebel M86/93 rifle, the Berthier system rifles, and the Chatellerault FM 24/29 light machine gun. I am trying to learn what other French arms, if any, were used by the Home Guard. The Berthier and Lebel were due for replacement in French service by the new MAS 36 7.5mm rifle. Production was slow, but by May 1940 the French apparently had about 250,000 of the MAS 36 and these were issued to first-line regular divisions and elite units. Many of these outfits must have been caught in the Dunkirk encirclement and evacuated to the UK, but I have not yet been able to determine whether the MAS 36 was issued to the Home Guard. I have the same question about other common French weapons such as the Berthier carbine series, the Hotchkiss M1914 medium machine gun, and the many French pistol types (MAC M1935 automatic, Ruby and Star automatics, Ruby and M1892 Ordnance revolvers). If anyone knows anything more about this subject, please let me know. Thanks.

 

UNIDENTIFIED RIFLE WITH SRD/Z SPECIAL UNIT--POSSIBLE MAUSER?

I have recently found a photograph (see attached) which purports to show members of SRD/Z Special Unit. Most are armed with US M1 carbines, which is interesting in itself. However, the man squatting on the extreme right in the front row is holding a bolt-action rifle which I cannot identify. It does not look long enough to be an Arisaka or a P14, nor does it look to me like any Lee-Enfield variant. My guess is that it is either an M1903 Springfield or some kind of short Mauser, though how a short Mauser could have gotten to the SWPA/NEI theater I have no idea. Does anyone here with sharper eyes than mine want to take a guess?

 

If I had to guess I'd agree on a Springfield.

 

Agreed. The Mauser barrel extends much further past the stock than the rifle shown.

 

I enlarged the image. I think the stock has a pistol grip, which means that if it's a Springfield it is an M1903A1 or an M1903A3 with a pistol grip stock (the M1903A3 apparently was made with several different stock styles).

 

THE GUNS OF THE PACIFIC COAST MILITIA RANGERS

The Pacific Coast Militia Rangers are a familiar story to many Canadians, but little known to outsiders. The force was formed after Pearl Harbor, when it was feared that Canada's Pacific Coast might be attacked by the Japanese. The PCMR was similar in many ways to the Home Guard. It was made up of local volunteers, many of whom were middle-aged. The force eventually totaled over 15,000 men in over 100 companies. As with the Home Guard many members of the PCMR were ex-soldiers, and they took naturally to discipline and drill. Many of the Rangers were hunters, trappers, loggers, prospectors, and fishermen who fished in some of the world's roughest seas; they were tough characters, and familiar with firearms. I think they might well have caused the Japs some annoyance if it had come to a fight.

As was true of the HG, the PCMR armament was a fascinating mix of weapons from disparate sources. At the outset many used personal weapons, including shotguns. Later on some Lee- Enfields, US M1917s, Ross rifles, and even some Mk II Stens were issued. To fill the gap, the Canadians took an unusual step. Lever-action American rifles in .30-30 caliber were common hunting weapons in the Canadian west and ammo for them was readily available there, so contracts were placed with Winchester and Marlin for .30-30 rifles for the PCMR. Most of these were the Winchester M1894, but the Marlin M1936 was also purchased. So the .30-30, a very familiar and popular round here in the States, became a British Empire service cartridge.

Here two Winchester M1894s with PCMR markings, two PCMR Marlin M1936s, and a pair of Rangers with their Winchesters.

 

On a related note, the arctic rangers continue to be operational and only recently decided to replace their Lee-Enfields.

http://www.historicalfirearms.info/post/62540568201/canadian-rangers-the-lee-enfield-the-canadian

http://www.army-armee.forces.gc.ca/en/1-crpg/index.page

 

The .30-30 continues to be the deer rifle of choice for many hunters here.