That man has got some connections seriously wrong in his brain.They should've given him 30 years in that prison.
Some people, even historians have been forwarding their ideas of what happened in history for years. Even now some people try and grab any thread of a conspiracy from even the most recent events for whatever reason they feel they need to. We know they are wrong, they use flawed evidence and ignore counter-evidence when it doesn't fit their view of the world. It's always been that way and always will be. It is their right to free speech even though we may call them loonys, misguided or 'flat earthers'. But they don't get arrested for it. Well not in a free and democratic society. Irvine and many like him are wrong. So are all the teachers who try and teach kids creationism rather than evolution, but they don't get arrested for trying to deny millions of years of the earth's history. WW2 was about freedom from oppresion and the ability to say what you wanted..... even if what you believe is wrong, not arresting people with loony views.
So are all the teachers who try and teach kids creationism rather than evolution, but they don't get arrested for trying to deny millions of years of the earth's history. I was leant some creationism DVDs to watch I'm now dubious about evolution. After all how does something as complex as an eyeball accidently evolve? I'm not saying I believe in Creationism but Evolution is only a theory too. Back on topic....
Some people, even historians have been forwarding their ideas of what happened in history for years. Even now some people try and grab any thread of a conspiracy from even the most recent events for whatever reason they feel they need to. We know they are wrong, they use flawed evidence and ignore counter-evidence when it doesn't fit their view of the world. It's always been that way and always will be. It is their right to free speech even though we may call them loonys, misguided or 'flat earthers'. But they don't get arrested for it. Well not in a free and democratic society. Irvine and many like him are wrong. So are all the teachers who try and teach kids creationism rather than evolution, but they don't get arrested for trying to deny millions of years of the earth's history. WW2 was about freedom from oppresion and the ability to say what you wanted..... even if what you believe is wrong, not arresting people with loony views. Firmly agree with this. The man's slipped from a writer of a few 'OK' books years ago to his current self-inflicted status as a bitter fool, only right that people should deride Irving's distasteful views but I've never understood the imprisonment thing, seems to me a sledgehammer to crack a rather unimpressive little walnut which has the side-effect of lending him 'martyr' status among his nasty little tribe of followers and other conspiracy theorists. Laughing at him seems a far more effective tool to me, education being (hopefully) somewhat stronger than legislation in most cases. (And Owen, I'd recommend Dawkins's 'The Blind Watchmaker' for further insight into evolution to counter some creation extremist's DVDs)
Dawkin's is worse than the anti-Christ so some Creationists I've met! Which only raises him up in my estimation .
With so many photos and personal accounts flooding the internet cosmos, how can anybody deny it. As said earlier in this thread, has he even set foot on Auschwitz? probably not, because he knows he'd prove himself wrong if he did. I agree with Sapper, the mans a prat. I nearly gassed myself this morning. Must have been those fried egg sandwiches.
Freedom of speech is a noble cause of course, but in chasing that freedom it doesn't give anyone the right to break the law. Irving broke the law, knew he had broken the law and was foolish enough to visit the very nation where he knew he might be arrested for it.
Freedom of speech is a noble cause of course, but in chasing that freedom it doesn't give anyone the right to break the law. Irving broke the law, knew he had broken the law and was foolish enough to visit the very nation where he knew he might be arrested for it. A fair point, but it could be pointed out that not all 'laws' are noble or fair. A country that says you aren't allowed to voice your views on a subject is not too far away from being the type of country that the world fought to get rid of. Many of the people deported to the camps were arrested for voicing their political ideas which were not the same as those in power. Others broke the 'law' in that their race, sexual orientation or mental health was not of the 'legal' standard. A slightly extreme comparison, but my point is valid. Other countries have been denying mass murder for years. The victims of Stalin, Pol Pot, the Christians of Turkey and more recently ethnic cleansing in the Balkans, parts of Africa and Georgia. Much of this denial is State lead and unpunished. So why is denial of one mass murder event by an individual punishable by imprisonment and the denial of others by whole states ignored?:mellow: As the old saying goes.... I may disagree with what you are saying, but I will lay down my life for your right to say it.
Andy007 Hows does he propose the Germans (I hate to lump a whole nationality with this) killed millions and millions of innocent people? It seems logical that as morbid as it sounds, gas chambers were the most cost and time effective method. P.S I haven't read the Leuchter report or any of madman Irvings work. They maintain that typhus was the main killer , and that no gassing took place. Auschwitz -Birkenau was merely a "labour camp" , Treblinka is reduced to being "a transit camp". They alledge that the Jews didn't die in the numbers claimed and that it is all a sham to claim money. Utter tripe , disgusting and distasteful but this is what they are trying to sell. Thyye alledge that the gas chambers were used to disinfect the dead who had died of typhus and their clothing , they try to explain away the massive cremation capacity by saying that it was impossible to burn the bodies as described. They attempt to deny the conversion of the gas chambers by saying it was impossible for them to have functioned as killing centres and that it is all a fraud - plans and supporting documents are alledged to be the product of a conspiracy theory all forged to invent the Holocaust. What is offerred in proof - nothing save pseudoscience which does not withstand expert rebuttal. Himmler's Posen is said not to mean what it says - "mistranslated" seems to be what is claimed. The ez.gruppen directed by Heydrich are alledged only to have shot "Partisans" - the fact that children and infants wer shot is ignored , the returns reported are in turn alledged to be "forged." Again no evidence which can withstand an expert review is offerred. Irving has visited the Reinhard Camps and Birkenau - he claims disease was the killer not the SS. Van pelt's "The Case for Auschwitz" - based on his evidence given in the Irving libel case destroys utterly Rudolf and Leuchter and the whole revisionist case from its many so called "experts" - like wise "The unwritten order" by Peter Longerich , also part of the defence evidence slaughters the idea that no order existed. Christopher Brownings "Ordinary Men - Reserve Police battalion 101 and the Final Solution" and his book "The origins of The Final Solution" are death blows to the revisionist case. Irving - see "Telling Lies about Hitler" by Professor Richard Evans - he guts Irvings so called view of history and what he describes as "Real History" - again based on the ill fated \Irving action. Lipstadt's History on Trial" which she wrote in the wake of Irving's defeat and the book which Irving suied over " Denying the Holocaust- The Growing Assult on Truth and Memory" examines the revisionist movement its authors and speakers and exposes the shallow nature of their arguements and how history is diostorted to serve what is no more than a poorly organised series of lies - well written and well dressed up lies , but nonetheless lies. The internet is the home of the revisionist cause - the recent arrest of Australian Holocaust denier Dr. Fred. Toben in recent times again brings a focus on this vile perversion of the truth. The Irvign case they attempt to disown claiming that David Irving is not a "Holcoaust Historian" - again history by way of soundbites for idiots is what it amounts. Does this make me sick , you bet it does.
Evans proved that Irvings distortion of the historical record had been going on for some years - his masterpiece "Hitler's War" - a work of no stature.
They maintain that typhus was the main killer , and that no gassing took place. Auschwitz -Birkenau was merely a "labour camp" , Treblinka is reduced to being "a transit camp". They alledge that the Jews didn't die in the numbers claimed and that it is all a sham to claim money. Utter tripe , disgusting and distasteful but this is what they are trying to sell. Thyye alledge that the gas chambers were used to disinfect the dead who had died of typhus and their clothing , they try to explain away the massive cremation capacity by saying that it was impossible to burn the bodies as described. They attempt to deny the conversion of the gas chambers by saying it was impossible for them to have functioned as killing centres and that it is all a fraud - plans and supporting documents are alledged to be the product of a conspiracy theory all forged to invent the Holocaust. What is offerred in proof - nothing save pseudoscience which does not withstand expert rebuttal. Himmler's Posen is said not to mean what it says - "mistranslated" seems to be what is claimed. The ez.gruppen directed by Heydrich are alledged only to have shot "Partisans" - the fact that children and infants wer shot is ignored , the returns reported are in turn alledged to be "forged." Again no evidence which can withstand an expert review is offerred. Irving has visited the Reinhard Camps and Birkenau - he claims disease was the killer not the SS. Van pelt's "The Case for Auschwitz" - based on his evidence given in the Irving libel case destroys utterly Rudolf and Leuchter and the whole revisionist case from its many so called "experts" - like wise "The unwritten order" by Peter Longerich , also part of the defence evidence slaughters the idea that no order existed. Christopher Brownings "Ordinary Men - Reserve Police battalion 101 and the Final Solution" and his book "The origins of The Final Solution" are death blows to the revisionist case. Irving - see "Telling Lies about Hitler" by Professor Richard Evans - he guts Irvings so called view of history and what he describes as "Real History" - again based on the ill fated \Irving action. Lipstadt's History on Trial" which she wrote in the wake of Irving's defeat and the book which Irving suied over " Denying the Holocaust- The Growing Assult on Truth and Memory" examines the revisionist movement its authors and speakers and exposes the shallow nature of their arguements and how history is diostorted to serve what is no more than a poorly organised series of lies - well written and well dressed up lies , but nonetheless lies. The internet is the home of the revisionist cause - the recent arrest of Australian Holocaust denier Dr. Fred. Toben in recent times again brings a focus on this vile perversion of the truth. The Irvign case they attempt to disown claiming that David Irving is not a "Holcoaust Historian" - again history by way of soundbites for idiots is what it amounts. Does this make me sick , you bet it does. Thanks for the infromation James, I think they fit the name 'deniers' quite well, I had a brief look at the Wikipedia entry for the Leutcher report and it seems as if their scienetific method was greatly flawed. A prime example of looking to validate your pre-formed opinion over finding the truth.
It is not a nice subject for children to learn at school. But without educating the children of today and the tomorrows, the people who deny the Holocaust are the winners. This cannot be allowed to happed for the sake of all those who served, and died in the 2nd World War, fighting for a free society. Regards Tom
Which is why the internet is the way forward to promote what is essentially a platform of deciet.Dr Fred Toben who was arrested last week , he had or may still have a video on the internet which runs for approx. one hour which proports to refute the gassing people at Birkenau. He claims to have consulted all the archives and researched everything - he does not say that he never looked at the plans in the National Archives at Auschwitz 1 , nor had he looked at the papers emerging from the Ex-Soviet Union, most of the latter have never been looked ar since they were taken at the end of the war. He also claims to have examined the ruins and found no evidence of "holes" in the roof of the gas chambers. "No holes no Holocaust" is his soundbite on this - he neglects to tell the "viewers" that the holes have been found , they have been identified on photographs referred for an expert opinion by NASA experts. He also fails to tell what happened these buildings at the end of the war , just as he dismisses all accounts from those who survived and saw what took place there. He fails to mention the absolute link to the "Kanada" section of the camp and the existance of two other gas chambers on the site. Collectively these so called and self appointed "experts" fail to tell an accurate history of gas chamber one on the Auschwitz site. They still sell the Leuchter report and variations on it and fail to tell the buyer that it has been utterly discredited , that the research methadology in it was absolutely wrong and that the author of the report had no expertise in the use of the substance he was assigned to find ( 60 years on) and that he knew absolutely nothing about the structures in which he had been sent to examine. Honesty is not the strong point of those who deliver this message and claim only to be intersted inthe truth. Makes me rather sick to be honest. This gentleman runs the "Adelaide Institute" , which sounds like a sea of learning , in reality it is based in his front sitting room.
Can someone explain why they are going out to deny the holocaust. I just dont get it. Are they looking for infamy or are they just antisemitics wishing to spread a hatred of the Jewish race?
I think it's all about attempting to somehow 'restore' the image of Adolf & his gang of loons by those still dazzled by their form of Nationalism. You see a lot of "oooh, he wasn't so bad really" around the interweb, and nine times out of ten there's a background agenda beyond pure stupidity. That's one of the dodgiest things I see about denialists & the web; there's a lot of sites out there that on first inspection seem neutral or purely historical in nature but closer inspection reveals some very distasteful links indeed along with axe-grinding of all types. There've even been cases of entire sites being 'cloned', and then re-hosted under very similar URLs with a subtly distorted message within the text. Paddle carefully on any newly discovered website relating to this subject, and if in doubt, ask Nizkor, as things are often more sophisticated than the 'shouting skinhead' more public face.
Oh dont get me started. That is an axe I love to grind. When I see all these Nazi fanatics who rave about the Germans and how superior they were to the Allies and how much better turned out they were... I find myself screaming 'They lost the War you nincumpoops!!!' Ok so that outburst was slightly of topic but along the same lines in a way. In a way I can see how people get attracted to the National Socialists (on March 5th 1938 17 million Germans voted for them... that was 44% of all votes cast). Like those 17 million, people today are still being captivated by the pomp and pageantry and Hitlers electric speeches that have echoed down through the decades. There is an interesting podcast out there by Dan Carlin entitled Nazi Tidbits which talks about this phenomenon. You can find it here. Its episode 16.
Oh dont get me started. That is an axe I love to grind. When I see all these Nazi fanatics who rave about the Germans and how superior they were to the Allies and how much better turned out they were... I find myself screaming 'They lost the War you nincumpoops!!!' Ok so that outburst was slightly of topic but along the same lines in a way. In a way I can see how people get attracted to the National Socialists (on March 5th 1938 17 million Germans voted for them... that was 44% of all votes cast). Like those 17 million, people today are still being captivated by the pomp and pageantry and Hitlers electric speeches that have echoed down through the decades. There is an interesting podcast out there by Dan Carlin entitled Nazi Tidbits which talks about this phenomenon. You can find it here. Its episode 16. Whats ironic Shane is that their popularity was on the wane just as they were elected to power in 1933. Once Hitler got offered the Chancellor's job it spelt the death knell for Democracy in Germany.
