No. 4 camp Thailand

Discussion in 'Prisoners of War' started by ClioCup, May 25, 2022.

  1. ClioCup

    ClioCup New Member

    Good morning
    I am carrying out some research on my Grandad and have recently obtained his army service records, which confirm he was a POW at the above mentioned camp.
    A family member has passed me a badge, see photo, which I am told was worn by my Grandad during his time as a prisoner.
    Is anyone able to provide any information on the badge? I have searched online but cannot find anything similar.
    Thank you in advance.
     

    Attached Files:

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  2. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    Welcome to the forum
    hopefully forum members with and interest in that area will be along shortly to assist you
     
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  3. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    Welcome to the Forum.
    I've not seen this before but I think you have posted the image upside down and it should look like this:
    upload_2022-5-25_11-51-53.jpeg

    Can you post your grandfather's name and scans of any relevant parts of his Service Record - it may help.

    Tim
     
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  4. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member

    What an interesting artefact. I look forward to learning more about it.
     
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  5. Blutto

    Blutto Plane Mad

    No. 4 camp was a 'Death Railway' camp at Kanburi (Kanchanburi), hence I suggest the railway truck like logo. There are a few threads on this site that might be of interest.
     
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  6. 8RB

    8RB Well-Known Member

    A very poignant item! My grandfather (a civil engineer and Private in the army of the Dutch East Indies - the KNIL) worked on the railway too. I do have a copy of his PoW card (attached). If that's not included in your grandfather's service records, you might be able to find it elsewhere?

    I'm assuming your grandfather survived. Mine did, as did his wife and two children (including my father). Like all (non-Axis) Europeans, they were in one or more Japanese internment camps on Java. The youngest and last one of them passed away last week. Good luck with your search!

    Edit: just had another quick search on the internet (I should dive into this seriously at one point!). See second attachment. Seems my grandfather also was in (same?) Camp No. 4 ("Kamp IV"). Any ideas where this camp was located? I know he was in "Changi" Internment Camp, Singapore, in March 1943, and from added document, it appears he was liberated in (or near?) Bankok.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 26, 2022
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  7. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

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  8. ClioCup

    ClioCup New Member

    Thank you for your replies.
    My Grandads name is Edward William Deall. Service No 907823
    Gunner with Royal Artillery 118 Field Regiment.
    Date of capture 15/02/1942.
    I have the pow camp as 4D camp-Thailand.
    Not sure if this info will help identify the badge?
    Thanks again
     
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  9. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

    ClioCup, Thank you for the photograph: I've not seen an example of such a badge before. I'll try and give an explanation of Camp IV with reference to war crimes trials. These trials provided a history of the railway within a few years of the end of the war.

    For a summary of evidence in the substantial British minor war crimes case prosecuted in Singapore ( Kew National Archives file WO235/963 ) see the link below to a document from the online archives of the International Criminal Court. This was sent by the British to the United War Crimes Commission and it was eventually ( the UN archive was a closed archive for 60 years plus ) put online by the International Criminal Court ( aka "Legal-Tools" ). The summary gives an explanation of the construction of the railway.

    The International Military Tribunal for the Far East (IMTFE ) held in Tokyo also received evidence concerning the Thai Burma railway.

    The Japanese Government prepared their own history of the railway in the autumn of 1945 which papers can be found in WO235/963, in the Australian substantial minor war crimes case about the railway, and at the IMTFE.

    For an understanding of "Camp IV" the Allies referred to these as "Groups". The Japanese used "IIII" rather than "IV" in the attached map, found in another file at Kew, in WO 325. Look for "IIII" to give an indication of the approximate position on the railway of Camp IV men. This map is a "fair copy" of the Japanese map. Where the key to the map says " Regular Employees about 100,000" it means civilians. Where it says "Prisoners of War about 550,000" it does not mean that number of men, but some measure of work unit.

    To build the railway civilian as well as prisoners of war were used. POWs always said the civilians were treated far worse than they were, which is saying a lot. The British did bring two "minor" war crimes cases involving civilian workers.

    John

    https://www.legal-tools.org/doc/52113b/pdf/

    P1460554 copy ed.jpg
     
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  10. Andsco

    Andsco Active Member

    Cliocup
    Every far east POW had to fill in a liberation questionnaire which among things lists all the camps he was in, this link I believe is your grandad's.
    Deall, E W
    Andy
     
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  11. JITTER PARTY

    JITTER PARTY Well-Known Member

    The sign/badge shown above seems to include a version of the standard Japanese Army symbol for a 'Field Motor Transport Depot'. It might be worth finding a Japanese speaker to translate the Kanji characters underneath.
     
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  12. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

    The figure "550,000" is probably a version of "55,000". A more accurate ( extremely accurate ) figure of POW used by Japanese Thailand Administration is shown in the attached photo from the book "The Story of Changi" by Captain David Nelson. This book explains how the captured allied forces in Changi Jail, Singapore, managed to keep records of their comrades and their movements away from Changi Jail, also from Java. Many documents, or rolls, using any type of paper or writing implement that could be obtained ( very worn typewriter ribbons were used ) were compiled by the "BRE" or "Bureau of Record and Enquiry." These documents were released for view at the National Archives in April 2011. Japanese Thailand Administration received 62,231 men at some stage, so 55,000 is approximate.

    P1290210 copy Ed.jpg



    The roll for 118 Field Regiment ( file WO 361/2092 at TNA ) has this:

    P1370009 copy Ed.jpg

    Using the page above it shows that Gnr Deall was in "D" Force, hence "4D". He was sent "OVL" or "Overland" ( as opposed to "OVS" or by sea ) on Train 6, departing Changi on 23rd March 1943.

    Another 1940's map shows where "IV" Group was ( from WO235/963 ):

    P1210099 copy Ed.jpg
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2022
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  13. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    I have it in the back of my mind that POWs at Serangon/Serangoon Camp (No.3 Camp on LQ) were employed on vehicle recovery and repair.

    Tim
     
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  14. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

    The Liberation Questionnaire has these camps in order:

    Changi ( Singapore )

    Towner Road (Singapore )

    Serangon (Singapore )

    Kinsayo about 172 kilo

    Chungkai about 59 kilo

    Tamuang about 34 kilo

    Tamajo about 237 kilo

    Nakom Patom near Bangkok

    Mergui further south on the Kra Isthmus

    Another map showing camps to the border with Burma.

    P1210096 copy Ed.jpg
     
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  15. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

  16. 8RB

    8RB Well-Known Member

    Any idea if this would have applied also to non-British POW's (like my grandfather L.P. Jeltes)? He will have been liberated (in or near Bankok) by British troops.
     
  17. Andsco

    Andsco Active Member

    I have to correct myself a little bit, apparently only half of the 56,000 known FEPOW's filled in the questionnaire which was usually done through interview. I don't see anything regarding your grandfather, the link below will take you to the full list.
    COFEPOW
    There is also a thread that has plenty of discussion about the liberation questionnaires.
    FEPOW LIBERATION QUESTIONNAIRES
    Andy
     
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