No.18 and No.38 sets - Inf Bn allocation

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by Gary Kennedy, Mar 15, 2018.

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  1. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    Last one of my obscure queries, just in case someone has seen something on the matter. I thought I had the answer to this one way back but am now less certain.

    The No.18 set and the No.38 set were the two types of wireless set issued directly to Inf Bns, and were certainly in widespread use from 1943 onwards. The May 1945 publication "Signals Training (All Arms) 1945 pamphlet No.10" states that the authorised allocation for an Inf Bn was 16 No.18 and 28 No.38 sets. Knowing this may have been the picture only reached at the end of the war I had looked for a separate confirmation from earlier on, and I really thought I'd found it for No.18 sets at least, better still from 1943 sources.

    Recently I got hold of two other sources of wireless set allocations, both of which give different numbers;

    Royal Signals ‘Pocket Book’ 1945 says 12 No.18 and 24 No.38 sets.
    Canadian War Eqpt Table M23-708 Aug 1944 gives 10 No.58 sets and 31 No.27 sets (these being the equivalents of the British No.18 and No.38 respectively).

    I am now wholly unsure. So if anyone might have seen something in their own reading or researching as to how many sets the later period Inf Bn had at their disposal I'd be interested to see it.

    Thanks

    Gary
     
  2. idler

    idler GeneralList

    The late Joe Brown has a battalion net diagram on his website:
    Second World War Memoirs of JOE BROWN

    I don't know if any of the issued sets were considered as 'spares'. (Whoops - found the Mor Pl!)
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
  3. Trackfrower

    Trackfrower Member

    if you look in the back of "Signals Training (All Arms) 1945 pamphlet No.10", you will find a pull out net plan with all (most) of the sets allocated and maybe some call signs.
    If not there, I will try t find a copy here.

    Lawrence
     
  4. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Infantry Training Part V: The Carrier Platoon 1943
     
  5. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Infantry Training Part IV: The Mortar Platoon 1943 implies that each detachment (i.e. mortar) has a 38 Set. I didn't notice it mentioned, but that could allow a section to operate as two mortars plus a remote OP. The pl comd's and 2i/c's allotments didn't leap out, but could be assumed to be the same as the carrier pl.
     
  6. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    Thanks for the replies both.

    TF - my copy of Signals Training (All Arms) is a reprint. As far as I know it's complete but it doesn't have a foldout diagram as you describe. Does your copy have a diagram 'figure number' with it, in case it's in mine but printed differently?

    Idler - I've got both the 1943 Carrier Pl and 1944 Mortar Pl pamphlets, which include the signals kit for them. I'm trying to verify the overall Battalion allocation if possible, and ideally what changes might have been made, so was hoping to find the wider figures. The 1944 Mortar Pl pamphlet does give a mini organization table at page 32, which shows each carrier with a No.38 set (total 7) and each 15-cwt truck with two No.38 sets (total six), coming to 13 overall, plus a single No.18 set at Pl HQ. The pamphlet also outlines the changes in the handling of the Mortar Pl, with a lot on NCOs working forward as Mortar Fire Controllers.

    The 1945 All Arms pamphlet changes this to three No.18 and ten No.38 sets, which is repeated in the R.Sigs 'Pocket Book' for 1945. The 1945 Cdn details appear to continue to show 13 No.38 sets with the Mortar Pl, six with the Carrier Pl and two per Rifle Coy (total 27), but deleted the previous reference to four spare.

    On the question of spare sets, I'm not sure it these were fully operational or only partially assembled; the pocket book states it doesn't show spare sets only complete ones, which might explain why it differs from All Arms, but that doesn't make any reference to spare sets being unusable as such, but calls them 'pool', which suggests a surplus of sets to be issued as required.

    Gary
     
  7. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Gary,

    I stumbled across a little bit more information for you from WO169/10213 - WD of 8 Bn Royal Fusiliers for 1943:

    "8 April 1943 Tahag
    Drawing of arms, equipment and supplies of all kinds continued.
    Bn now has 4 – 6 pdr and 4 – 2 pdr A/Tk guns and has 30 No. 38 wireless sets."

    It may also be of note that for the day before, the diary states that the Bn was being refitted to Middle East War Establishment. I'm not sure whether that would affect the number of wireless sets but the context for the details given for 8 April 43 certainly give me the impression that the diary is recording an uplift.

    Regards
    Tom
     
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  8. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    Tom, thanks for that info. I think 8 RF were at that time part of 56th Div, which had joined 8th Army after stints in Iraq and Palestine, and the Atk gun issue fits with ME estabs of the time.

    I didn't think I had the 1943 Mortar Pl pamphlet that Idler checked in, but I have an albeit incomplete copy (I would've sworn I had something 1941, but there wasn't one for that year). I couldn't see a ref for a fixed number of No.38 sets in it either, but it does suggest six, and I would expect the Pl cmdr had one at least to make seven. Along with the six for the Carr Pl that makes a reasonably likely 13. The 8RF figure of 30 for Apr43 is very close to the figure of 31 from Canadian records for late 1944.

    I'm wondering now if there was a change in the way sets were allocated within the Inf Bn, but not a major change in the overall number of sets they were authorised, in line with the change to the Mortar Pl handling detailed in May44. Just two No.38 sets for a Rifle Coy does seem a little low, and I'd always assumed it was to keep the main effort Pl in touch with Coy HQ, while the other two Pls relied on orderlies. I'm wondering now if perhaps the early 1943 allocation was instead based on;

    one per Rifle Pl (total 12)
    one per Rifle Coy HQ (total 4)
    one per 3-in Det and Mrtr Pl HQ (total 7)
    one per Carrier Sec and 2 for Carr Pl HQ (total 6)
    Overall Bn total - 29

    That's very close to the 30 reported in the Royal Fusiliers WD, and they may have had a few spares in there of course. Possibly, a year later, the decision was made to up the Mortar Pl by six No.38 sets, achieved by reducing the Rifle Coys from four to two, and creating a pool so that one Rifle Coy could be fully outfitted if required.

    I did find some figures from a Google books preview, which outlined wireless sets by type of Div on Middle East scales, for Inf, Armd and Mixed Div types. It was the typical sky high overview, nothing on dispositions to units, but trying to extrapolate from the figures given 30-ish No.38 sets for an Inf Bn in an Inf or Mixed Div was about what I got.

    There was also a reference in a footnote of possibly the same book about an MTP quoting a figure of No.38 sets, but I can't remember the figure or the MTP no. I'll have to see if I can track it down again. I'm pretty sure the MTP was available in a collection from MLRS, but I don't know if it gives more information than the footnote did.

    Gary
     
  9. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    Well one half of the query looks to now be sorted. "British Army Communications in the Second World War" references a figure of 31 No.38 sets available to an Inf Bn by 1944. The source is given as "Army Training Memorandum 47" of 15th January 1944. I was on the verge of getting the download of the ATM bundle from MLRS books when I noted N&MP offer them as well, and they have some of their books over on Fold3, which I still have a membership with. ATM47 was on there and gives the following at page 32;

    "The authorized scale of No.38 sets for the infantry battalion is now -

    Signal Platoon...4
    3-in mortar platoon...13
    Carrier Platoon...6
    Four rifle companies...8
    Total...31

    The sets in the signal platoon are spare...The carrier platoon's sets...one to each section and two...at platoon HQ...mortar platoon, each mortar has a set, the platoon commander has a set...remaining six...sued by mobile fire controllers. (Now my favourite bit). It will be seen that the sets previously allotted to rifle platoons no longer exist. They have been withdrawn because their conspicuousness attracted the fire of the enemy and frequently made it impossible for the man carrying it to remain with the platoon commander, when in close contact with the enemy...Meanwhile each company is allotted two sets for its internal use...the CO can pool the battalion's resources and re-allot as he thinks fit."

    I've seen anything yet in the same vein on No.18 sets. At least there was evidently a change in the issue of No.38 sets during 1943.

    Gary
     

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