Needless Flight Check? - BofB Film

While watching the Battle of Britain this evening the situation came up about pilots requesting to flight check their aircraft. And that RAF pilots going out singly were in fact looking for trouble and getting shot down needlessly.
Having never really read about this problem, I wonder how much it actually happened? I suppose it was more a problem before Adlertag?
Thanks.

 

While watching the Battle of Britain this evening

Hi Gage,

Film: Assuming (rather than Frank Kapra's 1943 documentary) you mean Guy Hamilton's 1969 blockbuster as aired by Five yesterday, Wikipedia say "The script by James Kennaway and Wilfred Greatorex was based on the book The Narrow Margin by Derek Wood and Derek Dempster.". That's reproduced on Answers and IMDb is another handy reference for goofs, trivia etc. Anywho, if all else fails, The Narrow Margin may well explain. If the answer made its way into the shooting script, it may just have ended up on the cutting room floor!

Other thoughts: I tried finding an online script/screenplay w/o success but, probably like many others here, have a DVD copy to maybe recheck what was actually said if you didn't record it off air. I've just skimmed through it (esp. for Caine, Howard & Olivier analyses) w/o spotting what you mean (airfield defence, shortage of men & language barriers were main problems) so it might help us if you could please identify the scene or remember who were discussing it. The engineer in me can think of several theories but best not to speculate so early on in this thread and without having even searched the forum/internet for answers!

Steve

 

Slightly off topic:

I once saw a pre-flight check list that included the following first item:

Landing gear down and locked.

Now really, would you give a plane to a pilot that didn't notice the landing gear wasn't down?

BTW, this list was for the P3-C "Orion" four engine turbo-prop patrol aircraft.

 

Now really, would you give a plane to a pilot that didn't notice the landing gear wasn't down?

Answer: 'Twould seem so - from 7:23 below

[YOUTUBE]t43w9oFIXcU[/YOUTUBE]

 

Undercarriage lever a bit sticky was it sir?

 

Answer: 'Twould seem so - ref. YouTube 'Battle of Britain Movie Part 2' from running-time 7:20
True, that. But this was a PRE-Flight list.

"Did you check tire pressure?"

"Can't, the plane's belly is on the tarmac."

"Well, skip that step then, let's start the taxi."

 

OpanaPointer,

The position of the undercarriage lever has been part of the pre=flight check list of every aircraft that I have flown (with retractable undercarriage!); it's not as daft as it sounds.

The position of the undercarriage lever and the position of the wheels are not necessarily the same. That's why you check the lever position; to ensure that when hydraulic pressure is applied or the 'weight-on-ground' switch is activated, the pilot knows that the wheels will remain down!

Roxy

 

OpanaPointer,

The position of the undercarriage lever has been part of the pre=flight check list of every aircraft that I have flown (with retractable undercarriage!); it's not as daft as it sounds.

The position of the undercarriage lever and the position of the wheels are not necessarily the same. That's why you check the lever position; to ensure that when hydraulic pressure is applied or the 'weight-on-ground' switch is activated, the pilot knows that the wheels will remain down!

Roxy
Understood. But this line exactly said "Landing Gear Down and Locked." Not the lever, the gear.

 

Fair point!

Although, it does give you evidence to scrub your flight if you are unable to comply with the check list!

Roxy

 

@ OpanaPointer,

I'm no pilot but maybe this will help from PediaView's 'Landing gear' 1.2 'Retractable gear' - para. 5:
Pilots confirming that their landing gear is down and locked refer to "three green" or "three in the green.", a reference to electrical indicator lights from the nosewheel and the two main gears. Amber lights indicate the gears are in the up-locked position; red lights indicates that the landing gear is in transit (neither down and locked nor fully retracted).[2]

Steve

 

One of the only remaining P-38s didn't fare too well 10 or 15 years ago when someone retracted the landing gear while it was parked. I can't find any information on the accident now but I remember seeing a picture of it sitting on 55 gallon drums right after it happened.

Dave

 

@ OpanaPointer,

I'm no pilot but maybe this will help from PediaView's 'Landing gear' 1.2 'Retractable gear' - para. 5:


Steve

So right. But that is an indication which requires electricity on the a/c.

As Roxy points out; If you visually confirm that landing gear is down and locked, BUT the landing gear handle at some point has been placed to UP, when el and hyd is applied, the a/c will obediently comply with the commands from the L/G handle...

I have (fairly recent) pics of the - diastrous - result, but it's somehow not right to post them...

 

@ Stormbird

I was merely pointing out the use of an almost identical phrase (now stressed in my post 10 for crystal clarity) not necessarily involving a lever - the apparent bone of contention at the time.

 

[YOUTUBE]nzGuO9-Ssd4[/YOUTUBE]

The scenes Gage is referring to are at 5:40 in the clip above and again at 6:39, with more reference to test flights at 1:15 in the clip below.

[YOUTUBE]GfR35QCr-Oo[/YOUTUBE]

 

I've just skimmed through it (esp. for Caine, Howard & Olivier analyses) w/o spotting what you mean (airfield defence, shortage of men & language barriers were main problems) so it might help us if you could please identify the scene or remember who were discussing it. The engineer in me can think of several theories but best not to speculate so early on in this thread and without having even searched the forum/internet for answers!

Steve

It's the scene between Caine and Howard. Howard playing Park is in white overalls having just landed in his personal aircraft.
I've got 'A Narrow Margin' I'll check it out.

PS Thanks Nick.

 

If I remember correctly the Spitfire, at least the early versions had a visual tell tale that the landing gear was down as a tab popped up on the wing each side of the cockpit showing the pilot that the landing gear was down.

I have checked my limited number of BoB books and cannot find any references to aircraft lost purely whilst the Pilot had convinced his CO that he had to carry out a flight check on this or that.

Regards
Tom

 

I thought there was a horn that went off in the cockpit if the aircraft went below a set height with gear raised? Maybe MkII?
Thanks Tom.

 

Wing undercarriage indicators MK I II Spitfire See sub para iii







Pilots Notes

 

Wills,

Thank you for the confirmation on the wing indicators and it appears that the Pilots had three different types of undercarriage warnings.

Regards
Tom

 

If I remember correctly the Spitfire, at least the early versions had a visual tell tale that the landing gear was down as a tab popped up on the wing each side of the cockpit showing the pilot that the landing gear was down.


Tom

It would appear from the photo (Mk XIX) in the link below that the indicators on the wings remained throughout the Spitfire's production life, they are also mentioned in the pilots notes for the Mk V.

http://spitfiresite.com/2011/07/guided-tour-of-the-spitfire-pr-mk-xix-the-bowser-wing.html/dsc06091


I thought there was a horn that went off in the cockpit if the aircraft went below a set height with gear raised? Maybe MkII?
Thanks Tom.

Craig

The horn sounded if the engine was throttled back by more than one quarter of the throttle's travel - pilots notes Mk V.