In October of 1939 amid the turmoil of the outbreak of war Hitler ordered widespread "mercy killing" of the sick and disabled. Code named "Aktion T 4," the Nazi euthanasia program to eliminate "life unworthy of life" at first focused on newborns and very young children. Midwives and doctors were required to register children up to age three who showed symptoms of mental retardation, physical deformity, or other symptoms included on a questionnaire from the Reich Health Ministry. A decision on whether to allow the child to live was then made by three medical experts solely on the basis of the questionnaire, without any examination and without reading any medical records. Read the rest here: October 1939 - Nazis Begin Euthanasia on Sick and Disabled
Hartheim Schloss: In 1942, a total of 3,166 civilian prisoners were transported to this place, situated near Linz in Austria, just over the German border,and there put to death by gassing. They were classified as 'unfit to work'. Hartheim was the only prison from which there were no survivors. Used in the SS Euthanasia Programme, around 10,000 mentally retarded and crippled children were murdered here. Five such establishments were set up in Germany, including the infamous Hadamar Psychiatric Clinic. Since the Programme began in 1939, a total of 70,273 mentally retarded people were murdered in these centers. Today, the Schloss has been converted into flats housing 22 families.The only reminder of the terrible events that took place here is a large plaque on the wall of the entrance hall. <hr size="4" width="100%"> View attachment 626 You can take a tour here: Hartheim Castle Memorial Site near Linz, Austria (Schloss Hartheim)
not forgetting that eugenics first started in the usa in 1913, when the u.s started a sterilisation programme of the mentally ill
not forgetting that eugenics first started in the usa in 1913, when the u.s started a sterilisation programme of the mentally ill Ayup vailron. :welcome3: Could it not be said that Eugenics was really crystallised in the 1860's with Galton's Nature & Nurture work? There's a lot of eugenic thinking still out there, seems to myself that there's more than a hint of Eugenics to the designer babies being talked of today. The Nazi's would have loved the Human genome information wouldn't they? Siezing on every opportunity to 'improve' the master race. Odd thought but if the Nazi's had won then I imagine genetic research could have been greatly accelerated. (give or take significant and useful scientists being eliminated due to their racial origins, I just typed "Jewish geneticists" into Google and see it's still something of a hot topic.) Cheers, Adam.
not forgetting that eugenics first started in the usa in 1913, when the u.s started a sterilisation programme of the mentally ill Sterilisation is not the same as Euthanasia on a mass murder scale and if it is your intention to proclaim it so, please don't bother. This thread will be watched very closely by the moderators.
Sterilisation is not the same as Euthanasia on a mass murder scale and if it is your intention to proclaim it so, please don't bother. This thread will be watched very closely by the moderators. Nice welcome Spidge? Many ethicists, particularily the theologically minded ones would disagree with you there. Sterilisation and mass murder are inextricably bound into the same eugenic topic, namely an attempt to control the destiny or future shape of a selected and often arbitrarily defined group by a variety of means, different ends of the scale maybe but certainly on the same scale. I can see nothing controversial in what Vailron posted and the article he cited appears scholarly and relevant to this subject. I refer you to the authors' home page at: Jonathan Marks home page at UNCC , read his talks, interests & publications lists, the short article on "the eugenics movement" found at; Research and Interests Is particularly interesting. Eugenics and euthanasia are very wide and inextricably entangled subjects. Cheers, Adam.
just pointing out that eugenics, as practised by the nazi's was not their idea, they were merely continuing with somethng started much earlier in other countries, germany of course took eugenics to a new level, however eugenics continued in sweden in the 50's and 60's
Nice welcome Spidge? Many ethicists, particularily the theologically minded ones would disagree with you there. Sterilisation and mass murder are inextricably bound into the same eugenic topic, namely an attempt to control the destiny or future shape of a selected and often arbitrarily defined group by a variety of means, different ends of the scale maybe but certainly on the same scale. I can see nothing controversial in what Vailron posted and the article he cited appears scholarly and relevant to this subject. I refer you to the authors' home page at: Jonathan Marks home page at UNCC , read his talks, interests & publications lists, the short article on "the eugenics movement" found at; Research and Interests Is particularly interesting. Eugenics and euthanasia are very wide and inextricably entangled subjects. Cheers, Adam. I agree I was a bit presumptuous on where this was heading and apologise for that. While eugenics as you say are interwoven, this stems from ancient times. The practical in the early 20th century was sterilisation versus the mass murder of the Nazi euthanasia programme in WW2. The thread here is the third level, "active or positive" euthanasia which involves taking deliberate action to cause a death.
like that practiced in china today, where the mentally ill, and the disal=bled are taken away to be sterilised, and in some cases killed. wonder where the chinese got the idea from
like that practiced in china today, where the mentally ill, and the disal=bled are taken away to be sterilised, and in some cases killed. wonder where the chinese got the idea from The "ancient" civilizations, Romans, Greeks et al were participants in eugenics so it may be that the Chinese participated in that era as well of their own accord and have just brought it out of the cupboard. I was not aware of intentional murder in China of the mentally ill etc however I may not be surprised. With respect to the thread, mass sterilization should not be confused with "mass sterilization" that turns to "mass murder" and extermination of so called lesser races.
Euthanasia has a long and complicated history, and one can analyse it in many ways - ethically, theologically, historically etc. However, the bottom line is whether a particular policy exists/existed that deliberately caused the death of a particular group of people due to a misapplied interpretation of medicine, biology and/or anthropology. Cases of direct and indirect euthanasia have tended to concentrate on the Nazi system, but the link between the US and German policy on the disabled was so intermingled that they fed off each other. It has been claimed that one of the only two books that Hitler read in prison was by the American eugenicist, Madison Grant. As to the T4 "system", this was merely a progression from the starvation of disabled people to the deliberate killings. Is the withholding of medical treatment (as was more common in the US) the same as euthanasia? In my opinion, yes. The most (in)famous case is the Tuskegee experiments where African Americans with syphilis were "studied" between 1932 and 1972. However, in this study, the men were never told what their illness was, and the doctors had not intention of curing or treating them. Why am interested in all this? I'm disabled! And, I spent 5 years studing it.
If the Nazi's called it euthanasia, they were obviously trying to dress up murder and make it presentable. Ethics could drag on this but there is a difference from terminating a life through severe untreatable illness, quality of life etc and killing as part of an idiology. The nazis definately subscribing to the latter and their "aryan" race way of thinking.
If the Nazi's called it euthanasia, they were obviously trying to dress up murder and make it presentable. Ethics could drag on this but there is a difference from terminating a life through severe untreatable illness, quality of life etc and killing as part of an idiology. The nazis definately subscribing to the latter and their "aryan" race way of thinking. I disagree. ALL policy is based on some form of ideology. The fact that the Nazis took it further was not due to the fact their ideology was more extreme but because by gaining complete state power, the medical practice in German could follow through with ideas that were originated in the US and British eugenics movements. George Bernard Shaw, who was an extreme believer in eugenics advocated the "destruction of the feeble minded strain". The question nowadays is, what qualifies as euthanasia. Would the fact that some cancer treatments are being withheld because of cost constitute euthanasia?
I disagree. ALL policy is based on some form of ideology. The fact that the Nazis took it further was not due to the fact their ideology was more extreme but because by gaining complete state power, the medical practice in German could follow through with ideas that were originated in the US and British eugenics movements. George Bernard Shaw, who was an extreme believer in eugenics advocated the "destruction of the feeble minded strain". The question nowadays is, what qualifies as euthanasia. Would the fact that some cancer treatments are being withheld because of cost constitute euthanasia? Hi Kyt, We would like to keep this thread to WW2 and the events that led to this ability by the Nazis to perpetrate these deaths. Whilst the Eugenics movement openly showed their preferences, Euthanasia in its many forms has been prevalent for 1000's of years. I do not have a problem opening up a separate thread in the barracks however it must stay non political. Winston Churchill was a follower and favoured consideration of segregation or sterilisation. My understanding: Passive or Negative Euthanasia: Involves not doing something to prevent death or allowing someone to die. Active or Positive Euthanasia: Which involves taking deliberate action to cause a death.
Hi Spidge, My apologies to you and everyone else. My intention wasn't to be political but to explore the contexts of some of the Nazi actions and policies. My interests in WW2 are the social and political as well as the battlefield. I hope I didn't offend anyone by trying to explore where some of the Nazi ideas came from, and how some ideas seem to be re-occuring themes. I shall refrain from future coment on the board.
Hi Spidge, My apologies to you and everyone else. My intention wasn't to be political but to explore the contexts of some of the Nazi actions and policies. My interests in WW2 are the social and political as well as the battlefield. I hope I didn't offend anyone by trying to explore where some of the Nazi ideas came from, and how some ideas seem to be re-occuring themes. I shall refrain from future coment on the board. As I said Kyt, put a thread in "the barracks" and it can be discussed as a single entity out of the scope of this WW2 thread where ww2 can also be discussed..
I disagree. ALL policy is based on some form of ideology. The fact that the Nazis took it further was not due to the fact their ideology was more extreme but because by gaining complete state power, the medical practice in German could follow through with ideas that were originated in the US and British eugenics movements. George Bernard Shaw, who was an extreme believer in eugenics advocated the "destruction of the feeble minded strain". It's all, once again, contextual isn't it? We might be horrified at the eugenics program but in the late 19th and (to a lesser extent) early 20th centuries I'd always thought of it as a fairly mainstream idea. If Hitlers program had been purely the eugenic breeding/tweaking of a population I'm not so sure it would have gained too much criticism or outrage from the 'man in the street' of the 40's, largely due to it's ideological origins amongst the leading, Western, sciences of the time. Stay with us Kyt.B) Cheers, Adam.
It's all, once again, contextual isn't it? We might be horrified at the eugenics program but in the late 19th and (to a lesser extent) early 20th centuries I'd always thought of it as a fairly mainstream idea. If Hitlers program had been purely the eugenic breeding/tweaking of a population I'm not so sure it would have gained too much criticism or outrage from the 'man in the street' of the 40's, largely due to it's ideological origins amongst the leading, Western, sciences of the time. Stay with us Kyt.B) Cheers, Adam. Yes Kyt, Start that thread in the barracks as I am sure there is more to be said on the subject.
