Navy Service Records

Discussion in 'The War at Sea' started by garygary, May 13, 2010.

  1. garygary

    garygary Junior Member

    Hi

    I requested my late father’s service record and recently received them. To be honest I am quite disappointed with what I was sent. I received just 4 A4 sheets of paper.
    Page 1 was a recently typed (Pay and Victual list)
    Page 2 was a list with a few dates and the name of ships with a comment.
    Page 3 was stamped Returned to class A.
    Page 4 was stamped war gratuity paid.
    And that was it.

    I was not sent anything about the date he signed up, or about training, a certificate of service, what his medal entitlement was or what medals had been issued.

    After reading some posts on service records it would appear that I should have received more information.

    My father was a Navy gunner and served on Merchant ships.
    For someone that spent 4 years in the navy that does not seem like a lot of information.

    Your comments would be appreciated; if you think I should have been sent more details could you list them for me.
    I will then complain to the records office

    Maybe I am expecting too much.

    Thanks

    Gary
     
  2. James Daly

    James Daly Senior Member

    Hi Gary,

    you're correct, Naval service records are quite basic - especially compared to the Army equivalent. My Granddads Army service record ran to 20 A3 pages, whereas my great uncle's Naval service record was ONE A4 page.

    To be honest I'm not sure whether this is down to them only sending out the basics, or whether its just that Naval records really are that basic. I suspect its the latter.
     
  3. LadyEmma

    LadyEmma Junior Member

    Have to say that sounds about right.
     
  4. DaveB

    DaveB Very Senior Member

    Hi - you haven't specified which navy your dad served in but I guess it was the RN.

    I haven't seen many of their files, but the Aussie counterparts are very basic too.

    A lot of Aussie files are available to read on-line and quite often RAAF files will make it to over 100 folios - plus there will be a separate casualty file if they were involved in a reportable incident.

    Aust Army files are normally 20 - 50 pages depending on the breadth of their service.

    RAN files seem to normally be around 4 or 5 pages - and written up in the world's smallest script, full of acronyms and jargon useless to those not conversant with their terminology.

    I have read the file for a 20 year veteran with pre-war service up until the early 1960s where he reached senior officer rank and he only had around 8 pages on his file......
     
  5. garygary

    garygary Junior Member

    Thanks for those answers
    I suppose I will just have to accept that thats all you get from the navy.

    While I am here can anyone tell me what (Returned to class A ) means ??
    And when it says (War gratuity Paid) what did you get ??

    Gary
     
  6. RJL

    RJL Senior Member

    Hi Gary - don't know if you're still around the forum.
    There were 2 Classes of release: A & B

    Class A Release consisted of individuals released from the forces in prority of age and length of war service.

    Class B Release consisted of individuals specially released for the purposes of transfer into industry for urgent reconstruction work.

    Re: War Gratuity - I'm not sure how the amount was worked out. My GF got one and I'm lucky enough to own his old Naval Saving Book which shows his Gratuity payment being transferred from his Pembroke Account. He got about £53

    Robert
     
  7. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    Gary,
    It's a pity you didn't ask for a photocopy as otherwise they send a typed transcript.
    With regard to him serving on merchant ships, I would presume this would be as a DEMS gunner. The names of these ships are rarely shown on service records - usually just the parent unit such as HMS PRESIDENT III. Do you know the names of any of those merchant ships?

    Regards
     
  8. GRANDAD195

    GRANDAD195 Junior Member

    whils i have got files to help resarch my medal collection i had a set of RN papers totaling 30 pages also i have also put in requests and got 2 or 3 pages, it all depends on when, where and what they did as some of the second world war papers are still very heavley restricted even to there familes.

    Army papers for WW2 contain absloutley everything even if it should be restricted its still there

    If all they have done is land based work then there will be nouthing to show but if he is a seasond sailer it should name every ship he has served on and the dates that he joined the ship had shore leave and returned back to the uk.

    I dont go down to the N/A my self now but i have a very good reacher that will find most things out for me for a small cost.
     
  9. Peccavi

    Peccavi Senior Member

    Recently I received my Uncle's Service record. As a Marine he comes under the Navy system unfortunately - just two pages and the only info on the first page is his height.

    The second page simply records when he joined the 3rd Marine Battalion and subsequently joined 44 Commando.

    Character and Efficiency are graded and signed off by the "Commanding Officer".

    I had hoped to be able to identify which Coy he was in from the name of the CO. BUT no luck. I have all the names of the Officers in 44 Commando but none correspond to the name on the signature, WW Glover (or earlier ones such as RG Harris and FW Phillips - no ranks of these individuals are given).

    Any idea who would sign off and grade his "Character and Efficiency"?
     
  10. GRANDAD195

    GRANDAD195 Junior Member

    On army parers the "Character and Efficiency would of been done usuall by the company Sgt Major as they get to know them better than the officers do.

    Please bear in mind tha alot of WW1 and WW2 papers were destroyed in the bombing of london in WW2 and more recent papers will be vetted befor sent out to the family, So you could have 50 page file on your grandad but due to his nature of combat they might only relise the very basic of records to you.

    grandad195
     
  11. Laird

    Laird Junior Member

    Gary

    My father was also a RN DEMS gunner and like you I received only 2 photocopied pages of records with nothing much on them. From what you write it seems we received identical records.
    Enlisted in Glendower and moved to President III. In 1943 after 2 years made a Leading Seaman. Discharged in 1946 - Class A etc, Gratutity payment etc.

    No ship's names, so impossible to look for a trace.
     
  12. suds

    suds Junior Member

    Hello

    Hopefully I am posting this in the right place

    My father was in the Royal Navy during World War Two. Prior to the war he was a cabinet maker. I have applied for his service record and it arrived today.

    The significant information is in a typed up list.

    HMS Drake, Acting Joiner 4th Class, 28 Sep 1943, 23 Nov 1943
    Government Training Centre, Slough, Acting Joiner 4th Class, 24 Nov 1943, 15 Feb 1844
    HMS Westcliff, Acting Joiner 4th Class, 16 Feb 1944, 19 Jun 1944
    HMS Copra (24 Unit), Acting Joiner 4th Class, 20 Jun 1944, 25 Oct 1944
    HMS Copra (24 Unit), Joiner 3rd Class, 26 Oct 1944, 31 Mar 1946
    HMS Copra (also lent to Mobile Base Maintenance Unit 19 - (dates not recorded) Joiner 3rd Floor, 1 Apr 1946, 13 May 1946

    .....released to shore in Class A on 13 May 1946


    Family legend would have it that he didn't do much, if any, time at sea. I have done some googling re the postings listed and I guess that it could be compatible with not going to sea.

    I have a couple of direct questions for which I would be grateful for any help.

    I always understod that he finished as a petty officer, is that realistic for a joiner 3rd Class?

    Although I found out some information about HMS Copra and can see that it wasn't a ship or a base, does the reference to 24 Unit and Unit 19 have any relevance?

    Again family legend has it that, at some stage, he was based at Windsor Castle doing repairs. Is that possible?

    As I said any help gratefully received.

    Regards

    suds
     
  13. chris761

    chris761 Junior Member

    I just received my fathers naval records which are sketchy with the basic details. His reords also contained details of medals showing 4 but we have 5. One for Africa conatins a 1 st army clasp. does anyone know why. Two ribbons also have metal flattened "roses". Does anyone know what these are. And finally the 5th medal is like the war medal but is inscribed with his name and the ribbon is darl navy (possibly black) then thin red and emerald green. Does anyone know what this was for. Many thanks
     
  14. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    Hello and welcome,

    Not sure why he would have a 1st Army Clasp. Maybe someone else can answer that.

    The Clasp (North Africa 1942-43) to the Africa Star would be awarded to those R.N. Inshore Squadrons and M.N. vessels which worked inshore 23rd Oct., 1942 to 12th May, 1943.

    Two ribbons also have metal flattened "roses". Does anyone know what these are

    The silver rose emblem on a ribbon would indicate the award of a clasp to signify that the indivdual had qualified for an additional star. Only a maximum of five stars could be worn by one individual. If he qualified for additional stars they would be indicated by the wearing of a clasp. Does that make sense?

    Regards
    Hugh
     
  15. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    whils i have got files to help resarch my medal collection i had a set of RN papers totaling 30 pages also i have also put in requests and got 2 or 3 pages, it all depends on when, where and what they did as some of the second world war papers are still very heavley restricted even to there familes.

    Army papers for WW2 contain absloutley everything even if it should be restricted its still there

    If all they have done is land based work then there will be nouthing to show but if he is a seasond sailer it should name every ship he has served on and the dates that he joined the ship had shore leave and returned back to the uk.

    I dont go down to the N/A my self now but i have a very good reacher that will find most things out for me for a small cost.


    I have highlighted part of your quote as I do not think that you are correct.

    I have a record of a veteran friend of mine and every shore establishment is shown, as well as all the ships he sailed on showing date on and off.

    ie HMS Eagle 8th June 1942 to 11th August 1942, The date of sinking from U-Boat action on Operation Pedestal.
    A total of 32 entries from 23 January 1940 to 31 March 1947.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  16. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    I tend to agree Tom. If anything it's the sea time that can be missing on a Naval record. Those attached to accounting bases for example show their service as being on that base or 'stone frigate' with the actual real ship in brackets - sometimes the real ship is not mentioned though which is a pain in the....

    Regards
    Hugh
     
  17. chris761

    chris761 Junior Member

    Hello and welcome,


    The silver rose emblem on a ribbon would indicate the award of a clasp to signify that the indivdual had qualified for an additional star. Only a maximum of five stars could be worn by one individual. If he qualified for additional stars they would be indicated by the wearing of a clasp. Does that make sense?

    Regards
    Hugh
    Hugh please excuse my ignorance but Are medals the same as stars. I have 2 medals, 3 stars 1 with the 1st army clasp and 2 silver roses. How many awards does that make whether as duplicates or not if there are a max. number . Thanks Chris
     
  18. RJL

    RJL Senior Member

    Hi Chris. The Stars are just called 'medals' too.

    What are the 3 Stars? The Africa & one other. I'm assuming 1939-1945 too?

    1st Army Clasp? I've no idea why a Navy man would receive this. RN personnel who qualified for a clasp received the "North Africa 1942-43"

    The Rosettes. If a person survived the war then any clasps awarded also included a Rosette. I.E One clasp = 1 rosette. The idea being that when wearing their medals they wore the clasp. When wearing only their medal ribbons they wore the rosette on the ribbon.

    So, at a guess, one of your dad's rosettes goes with the Africa clasp. The other? Depends on what the other Stars are as to where it might belong.
     
  19. chris761

    chris761 Junior Member

     
  20. RJL

    RJL Senior Member

    Hi Chris. Have you applied for your dad's service record? It might be the only way to see what's going on.

    (A lot of this is me thinking/wondering out loud and guessing tbh. Probably only throws up more questions too.)

    1.
    It appears that RN personnel did serve on land as part of 1st and 8th Armies. They would have received the 1st or 8th Army Clasp and not "North Africa 1942-43" as I had suggested. However, they would have received the "1" or "8" emblem and not the Rose. So, mystery remains -did your dad operate on land with the 1st Army but received the wrong emblem. Or did he receive the correct emblem but the incorrect Clasp?

    2.
    The rose on the 1939-45 Star Ribbon to a RN man makes no sense. The only people who qualified for the clasp to the 39-45 Star were personnel who flew in fighter aircraft engaged in the Battle of Britain. Airmen who flew other aircraft, even though they fought in the battle, didn't even receive the clasp. I wonder if the Rose is just on the wrong ribbon and should be on the Atlantic?

    3.
    The lack of an Italy Star makes me think your dad left the Mediterranean for Atlantic/Home waters before qualifiing for Italy Star started. I wonder if your dad qualified for the France&Germany Star and therefore the rose should be on the Atlantic Star? ie. You couldn't get both Atlantic + F&G Stars. You could get At Star + F&G Clasp or vv.

    4.
    The above is pure guesswork because there should be another clasp to go with the rose, perhaps "France and Germany".
     

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