Naughty Boy, You're Confined to Barracks

Lotus7 · Jul 30, 2014

Hi guys, hope some one can help me understand what the procedure in WW2 for an offence committed while in the UK at training camp, barracks ect. How would the offender be approach for not obeying an order given, what would have been the "Court" procedure, and would he not only loose privileges would he loose any pay? Do the MOD still keep offences records.

Example....
Awarded 10 days CB by CO offencesi) Failing to appear on a parade (ii) disobeying a lawful command
Given by his superior officer, sec.15(2) & 9(2)AA in the UK.

Given the number of men getting ready for D Day there must have been many men who where put on a
Charge for offences committed.

Regards

Lotus7

dbf · Jul 30, 2014

The normal procedure probably went like this: the offender was brought before his Commanding Officer. I think he would have been asked if he were willing to accept the CO's punishment or if he would want a C-M. If the timing was before the Normandy invasion, then the option of C-M would have probably meant missing embarking with his unit.

Confined to barracks at that point - well, by the time units reached the south coast & the staging camps during the immediate run-up to 6 June, the men were already facing strict security conditions... no leave, no letter writing.

One account from pre-invasion time, failing to obey & field punishment:

[About his Commanding officer]
But you know he was a good soul, I mean, he was kind to me. I went across to Normandy under Field Punishment.

Really!
Oh yes I was, I tell you, they didn’t muck around in those days. We were in billets in Eastbourne and each day there was a billet orderly. I happened to be that morning billet orderly and my Platoon Sergeant - who got an MM - he said ‘Where’s the key of the billet?’ Somebody, some clown said ‘It’s down the loo.’ and he said “Brady, go and get it out of the loo.” I got as far as saying “What?” and he said “You’re disobeying an order, fall in!” I had to get the bloody key out of the loo but I was doubled down to the Battalion Headquarters. Get down there, marched in eventually.

‘Disobeying an order? You realise what a serious crime this is and you want to be an Officer.’
Oh Mother of God!
He said: ‘I don’t know what to do, it’s a Court Martial offence.’
But I’d already volunteered to go, not for another Officer’s test, WOSB. I’d failed the first one and was due for a second one, and I said ‘No, I want to go with the Battalion.’

Anyway, he said ‘Well I’m going to let you off lightly.’ He said ‘14 days Field Punishment.’
Well, in the old days they tied you to a bloody gun or something! But in Eastbourne, they put on big packs and you had to answer every call, you didn’t get any money or anything. Think the pay was stopped. It really was very grim. They used to parade and it was a Bank Holiday at Eastbourne and we were parading with the defaulters who were there anyhow. Up - and they were going up and down the Front and ‘Left turn, right turn, about turn.’
A woman came up and said to the Drill Sergeant, Thackeray: ‘I’m going to report you to the War Office!’ He said ‘If you don’t get off my Parade I’ll put you in with them!” Well of course that got me into trouble cos whenever we ‘faced’ I got the giggles. And whenever we turned round left turn, right turn, we faced together, god, I couldn’t help it and that gave you an extra bloody hour’s Drill. So I spent my luck. Anyhow...

...you were very good at Drill at the end?
Well, I wasn’t any better but I always was the last one off. Anyhow we get off to Normandy and the R.S.M. came up to me in the Field on the first day and he said: ‘Ah, C.O’s been kind to you and he’s going to let you off that.’ But it never went on my documents so I was quite relieved but I’ll always remember old [Sergeant Major] Grant.
Click to expand...

http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/51315-market-garden-normandy/

Lotus7 · Jul 30, 2014

dbf said:

The normal procedure probably went like this: the offender was brought before his Commanding Officer. I think he would have been asked if he were willing to accept the CO's punishment or if he would want a C-M. If the timing was before the Normandy invasion, then the option of C-M would have probably meant missing embarking with his unit. Confined to barracks at that point - well, by the time units reached the south coast & the staging camps during the immediate run-up to 6 June, the men were already facing strict security conditions... no leave, no letter writing. One account from pre-invasion time, failing to obey & field punishment:

[About his Commanding officer]But you know he was a good soul, I mean, he was kind to me. I went across to Normandy under Field Punishment. Really!Oh yes I was, I tell you, they didn’t muck around in those days. We were in billets in Eastbourne and each day there was a billet orderly. I happened to be that morning billet orderly and my Platoon Sergeant - who got an MM - he said ‘Where’s the key of the billet?’ Somebody, some clown said ‘It’s down the loo.’ and he said “Brady, go and get it out of the loo.” I got as far as saying “What?” and he said “You’re disobeying an order, fall in!” I had to get the bloody key out of the loo but I was doubled down to the Battalion Headquarters. Get down there, marched in eventually. ‘Disobeying an order? You realise what a serious crime this is and you want to be an Officer.’Oh Mother of God!He said: ‘I don’t know what to do, it’s a Court Martial offence.’But I’d already volunteered to go, not for another Officer’s test, WOSB. I’d failed the first one and was due for a second one, and I said ‘No, I want to go with the Battalion.’ Anyway, he said ‘Well I’m going to let you off lightly.’ He said ‘14 days Field Punishment.’Well, in the old days they tied you to a bloody gun or something! But in Eastbourne, they put on big packs and you had to answer every call, you didn’t get any money or anything. Think the pay was stopped. It really was very grim. They used to parade and it was a Bank Holiday at Eastbourne and we were parading with the defaulters who were there anyhow. Up - and they were going up and down the Front and ‘Left turn, right turn, about turn.’A woman came up and said to the Drill Sergeant, Thackeray: ‘I’m going to report you to the War Office!’ He said ‘If you don’t get off my Parade I’ll put you in with them!” Well of course that got me into trouble cos whenever we ‘faced’ I got the giggles. And whenever we turned round left turn, right turn, we faced together, god, I couldn’t help it and that gave you an extra bloody hour’s Drill. So I spent my luck. Anyhow... ...you were very good at Drill at the end?Well, I wasn’t any better but I always was the last one off. Anyhow we get off to Normandy and the R.S.M. came up to me in the Field on the first day and he said: ‘Ah, C.O’s been kind to you and he’s going to let you off that.’ But it never went on my documents so I was quite relieved but I’ll always remember old [Sergeant Major] Grant.
Click to expand...

http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/51315-market-garden-normandy/
Click to expand...

Very interesting read, thanks for that. The offence in the example happened in March '44 poss' at Broadstairs or Seven Oaks before dispatching for D Day. Could there still be a record of the charge?

Regards

Lotus7

dbf · Jul 30, 2014

There'd obviously be a note in service records. I take it you already have them since you have quoted the charges and the punishment meted out, so I don't understand what you mean by 'record of the charge' ..?
There'd not be any transcript etc if that's what you mean. Since this would be at Bn level I can't think of anything else that would have survived - unless the Regt kept 'charge books' in their archives, which would likely be no more than is in service records.
This was all comparatively routine/formulaic stuff for a CO.
Charge?
Anything to say?
Will you accept my punishment?

Ron Goldstein · Jul 30, 2014

This is how such minor charges were dealt with in North Africa in 1943:

http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/12605-excerpts-from-larrys-wartime-diary/?p=139171

This is how it appeared on my Army Recrds:
http://ww2talk.com/forums/gallery/image/326-army-records-ron-sheet-06/

Ron

Lotus7 · Jul 30, 2014

dbf said:

There'd obviously be a note in service records. I take it you already have them since you have quoted the charges and the punishment meted out, so I don't understand what you mean by 'record of the charge' ..?
There'd not be any transcript etc if that's what you mean. Since this would be at Bn level I can't think of anything else that would have survived - unless the Regt kept 'charge books' in their archives, which would likely be no more than is in service records.
This was all comparatively routine/formulaic stuff for a CO.
Charge?
Anything to say?
Will you accept my punishment?
Click to expand...

What am trying find out if poss' what was the superior officer's Order that was given and ignored in part(ii) as part (i) is self explanatory, and if they related to each other. May be it was nothing that serious it warranted noting. Thanks for your help it's very useful.

Regards

Lotus7

redtop · Jul 30, 2014

Hi Lotus 7
I posted this snippet from my Fathers Journals elsewhere on the site but will rehash it as I think it helps answer your question.
He also got fined a days pay. The punishment (Field) and fine went on his service record.

We were in a park surrounded by a brick wall, guarded around the outside and we were getting very restless and finally we got a weekend pass. Our Troop (Mercers), one of the two of G Battery 5 RHA was made up of Londoners, Geordies and Scots and had been together since I joined up in 1940.
The Battery strength was about 72 strong .7 men on each tank or SP (Self Propelled Gun) A Troop 4 Guns B troop the same Plus HQ. Fitters, stores personnel and a Honey observation Tank.

A weekend pass was not enough,
(We had a good Knowledge of what we were about, but no talking)
We knew, so I took additional days (AWOL) my mate Jock went to Scotland. And others took additional days, but we all returned to be grabbed by the Redcaps.
We were marched in front of a new CO. Three at a time.
“You will take my punishment;”
“I order seven days field punishment.”
I think that out of 72 some 40 went on the parade.
It was May extremely hot, in full kit, Overcoat, valise, backpack, rifle, ammunition and kitbag with your personal gear. Rifle above your head. Right turn, left turn, double, about turn, and as one Sergeant got tired another took over, that went on from 5 AM.
The following day the Redcaps that had “Brought us in “came and told the CO. That Field Punishment had been banned so we got Jankers. We could not go out anyway.

Lotus7 · Jul 30, 2014

redtop said:

Hi Lotus 7
I posted this snippet from my Fathers Journals elsewhere on the site but will rehash it as I think it helps answer your question.
He also got fined a days pay. The punishment (Field) and fine went on his service record.

We were in a park surrounded by a brick wall, guarded around the outside and we were getting very restless and finally we got a weekend pass. Our Troop (Mercers), one of the two of G Battery 5 RHA was made up of Londoners, Geordies and Scots and had been together since I joined up in 1940.
The Battery strength was about 72 strong .7 men on each tank or SP (Self Propelled Gun) A Troop 4 Guns B troop the same Plus HQ. Fitters, stores personnel and a Honey observation Tank.

A weekend pass was not enough,
(We had a good Knowledge of what we were about, but no talking)
We knew, so I took additional days (AWOL) my mate Jock went to Scotland. And others took additional days, but we all returned to be grabbed by the Redcaps.
We were marched in front of a new CO. Three at a time.
“You will take my punishment;”
“I order seven days field punishment.”
I think that out of 72 some 40 went on the parade.
It was May extremely hot, in full kit, Overcoat, valise, backpack, rifle, ammunition and kitbag with your personal gear. Rifle above your head. Right turn, left turn, double, about turn, and as one Sergeant got tired another took over, that went on from 5 AM.
The following day the Redcaps that had “Brought us in “came and told the CO. That Field Punishment had been banned so we got Jankers. We could not go out anyway.
Click to expand...

Thanks Redtop, another good read, I've heard the term Jankers before never knew what it meant until now so thanks for that. It must
have been a scary time not knowing where or what you where going into, so for some it was a bit of "fun" before they went, and risk
the consequences if they got caught.

Regards

Lotus7.

dbf · Jul 30, 2014

Ron mentions some being treated with more leniency than others. Often down to the entertainment level of their 'excuse'. My Dad's mate spoke with a very bad lisp and according to him Sammy was 'always getting away with it'. One of many similar stories...

I remember we were on a 3" mortar course and we were in the Training Battalion. The mortar now, it was a very heavy piece of equipment, it had a big barrel and a plate that it sat on. It took 2 men to carry the plate, heavy thing. I used to make sure I got the sights to carry.

We were late getting back to barracks, and the Sergeant made us go back, but pick up everything first. It was on some waste ground at the back, you see and we had to go down this lane, a concrete road back again.

Well I had the sights and Sammy - he always ended up with the barrel ! He was in front of me, we had to march back and the barrel was bouncing up and down on his shoulder. Sammy was cursing. He'd ended up with it a couple of times at least by then.

And we were marching down this road and there were these 2 young officers at the side. Sammy stepped out and the Sergeant made us halt. Sammy took the barrel off his shoulder and threw it down on the ground in front of the Sergeant.

The officers were saying things like "Oh, we've only just joined the Micks and this is what we see." "A Guardsman throwing his weapon at a Sergeant!" Anyway they moved off.

That was the first time.

So the next we were on a running walk, 5 miles run. It wasn't all at once in amongst each other, we had to do it in marching order, lef', righ', lef', righ'. We had left the barracks - Lingfield it was - and we were running for one mile up this hill, round the barracks and down a wee lane, 100 yards double time, 100 yards marching and Sammy had ended up with the barrel again. We'd just finished double time and there was there was this wee bridge over this stream, only about a foot of water and Sammy stepped out again and heaved the barrel over the bridge and into the water.

The Sergeant shouted, "What did you do that for?"

And Sammy says, "I couldn't help it! Tha'th the thecond or third time I've carried it."

So the Sergeant says, “it’s the Guard Room for you when we get back.” Sammy’d seen the inside of the Guard room manys a time.

“Not on your life”, he says, or words to that effect , “there'th thill another three miles or tho to go till we get back. Put me on a charge!”

Well he couldn't then, so Sammy says, "All right, I'll put methelf on one." And he jumped in the stream, got the barrel and went back the way we came... all regimental-like of course.

Anyway, when we finished, we were marching through the gates and there was Sammy looking out the bars, shouting: "Thupid eejits!" at us.

That was when he ended up on a charge in front of the CO. He ended up in front of Reynolds, and there were young officers there too.

Sammy explained, "Thir, I always get that barrel, me thoulder'th black and blue carrying it." He was going to show them and all, started unbuttoning his blouse. Well the CO hid his face and then he made an order that Sammy wasn't ever to carry the barrel again. But he probably ended up with the base plate instead!

He got away with it, he got away with everything, they couldn't take him seriously.
Click to expand...

Lotus7 · Jul 31, 2014

dbf said:

Ron mentions some being treated with more leniency than others. Often down to the entertainment level of their 'excuse'. My Dad's mate spoke with a very bad lisp and according to him Sammy was 'always getting away with it'. One of many similar stories...

I remember we were on a 3" mortar course and we were in the Training Battalion. The mortar now, it was a very heavy piece of equipment, it had a big barrel and a plate that it sat on. It took 2 men to carry the plate, heavy thing. I used to make sure I got the sights to carry.

We were late getting back to barracks, and the Sergeant made us go back, but pick up everything first. It was on some waste ground at the back, you see and we had to go down this lane, a concrete road back again.

Well I had the sights and Sammy - he always ended up with the barrel ! He was in front of me, we had to march back and the barrel was bouncing up and down on his shoulder. Sammy was cursing. He'd ended up with it a couple of times at least by then.

And we were marching down this road and there were these 2 young officers at the side. Sammy stepped out and the Sergeant made us halt. Sammy took the barrel off his shoulder and threw it down on the ground in front of the Sergeant.

The officers were saying things like "Oh, we've only just joined the Micks and this is what we see." "A Guardsman throwing his weapon at a Sergeant!" Anyway they moved off.

That was the first time.

So the next we were on a running walk, 5 miles run. It wasn't all at once in amongst each other, we had to do it in marching order, lef', righ', lef', righ'. We had left the barracks - Lingfield it was - and we were running for one mile up this hill, round the barracks and down a wee lane, 100 yards double time, 100 yards marching and Sammy had ended up with the barrel again. We'd just finished double time and there was there was this wee bridge over this stream, only about a foot of water and Sammy stepped out again and heaved the barrel over the bridge and into the water.

The Sergeant shouted, "What did you do that for?"

And Sammy says, "I couldn't help it! Tha'th the thecond or third time I've carried it."

So the Sergeant says, “it’s the Guard Room for you when we get back.” Sammy’d seen the inside of the Guard room manys a time.

“Not on your life”, he says, or words to that effect , “there'th thill another three miles or tho to go till we get back. Put me on a charge!”

Well he couldn't then, so Sammy says, "All right, I'll put methelf on one." And he jumped in the stream, got the barrel and went back the way we came... all regimental-like of course.

Anyway, when we finished, we were marching through the gates and there was Sammy looking out the bars, shouting: "Thupid eejits!" at us.

That was when he ended up on a charge in front of the CO. He ended up in front of Reynolds, and there were young officers there too.

Sammy explained, "Thir, I always get that barrel, me thoulder'th black and blue carrying it." He was going to show them and all, started unbuttoning his blouse. Well the CO hid his face and then he made an order that Sammy wasn't ever to carry the barrel again. But he probably ended up with the base plate instead!

He got away with it, he got away with everything, they couldn't take him seriously.
Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Thanks dbf, another good read, very amusing if you read it again putting in the lisp. It does seem the punishment was depending on
who was in charge and the individual concern and of course the "crime" committed. At this moment I've not found any record for my
Example, but it's interesting finding out others stories.

Regards

Lotus7.

Joe Brown · Aug 1, 2014

In an infantry battalion, minor military misdemeanours, like dirty equipment or late on parade, would be dealt by the the Company Commander. More serious disciplinary offences, like absent without leave, would be referred to the Battalion Commander.

Officers at OCTU would be required to study the Manual of Military Law and would receive instruction on the procedure to be followed in holding 'Orderly Rooms'. The Company Sergeant Major would March in the accused, first having ordered him to removed head dress and web belt. At Battalion Orders it would be the RSM. It was thought these might be used if the accused turned aggressive and decided to swipe the officer with his hat and cap badge or take a swing at him with his web belt! We were also advised to make sure there was distance between where the accused would stand and the officer's desk, in case it could be pushed over on top of the officer!

The one golden rule was that the accused's conduct sheet was never produced to the Company Commander or the Battalion Commander until a verdict had been announced. If 'guilty' then the conduct sheet would be considered by the officer before deciding on the punishment.

Appropriately, the Pipe Call used in The Royal Scots to summon those appearing at the Commanding Orders was "A Man's a Man for A' That! " . . . No matter, what the offence, he was a Royal Scot.

Joe Brown

Lotus7 · Aug 1, 2014

Joe Brown said:

In an infantry battalion, minor military misdemeanours, like dirty equipment or late on parade, would be dealt by the the Company Commander. More serious disciplinary offences, like absent without leave, would be referred to the Battalion Commander.
Officers at OCTU would be required to study the Manual of Military Law and would receive instruction on the procedure to be followed in holding 'Orderly Rooms'. The Company Sergeant Major would March in the accused, first having ordered him to removed head dress and web belt. At Battalion Orders it would be the RSM. It was thought these might be used if the accused turned aggressive and decided to swipe the officer with his hat and cap badge or take a swing at him with his web belt! We were also advised to make sure there was distance between where the accused would stand and the officer's desk, in case it could be pushed over on top of the officer!
The one golden rule was that the accused's conduct sheet was never produced to the Company Commander or the Battalion Commander until a verdict had been announced. If 'guilty' then the conduct sheet would be considered by the officer before deciding on the punishment.
Appropriately, the Pipe Call used in The Royal Scots to summon those appearing at the Commanding Orders was "A Man's a Man for A' That! " . . . No matter, what the offence, he was a Royal Scot.
Joe Brown
Click to expand...

Many thanks Joe for an excellent explanation, I'm now beginning to understand the way in which things where done. Would I be
correct in saying the Ref quotes relate to the "crime" committed?. Also could the offender loose there good conduct stripe? If the
Offence was minor or not....... All very interesting thanks to all who replied.

Regards

Lotus7

Joe Brown · Aug 1, 2014

Lotus7:

A military offence that could possibly lead to the removal of a Good Conduct Stripe would be referred to the Battalion Commander. Of course, the 'charge' on AB252 had to be proved and witnesses would be questioned but frequently the offender would admit to the charge but before the Battalion Commander passed sentenced he would hear any mitigation which his Company Commander would want the C.O. to hear. Company Commanders were always supportive of their own men, hoping always to deal with discipline matters within his Company but when his powers were restricted and an offence had to be referred to the C.O. he would be there at the Battalion Orders and would not hesitate to speak up for his man when he felt he should and there was justification. In Rifle Companies there was always very close rapport between officers, NCOS and men which I missed when I was appointed to the Commanding's Officer Staff as his Intelligence Officer.

Joe

Lotus7 · Aug 1, 2014

Joe Brown said:

Lotus7:A military offence that could possibly lead to the removal of a Good Conduct Stripe would be referred to the Battalion Commander. Of course, the 'charge' on AB252 had to be proved and witnesses would be questioned but frequently the offender would admit to the charge but before the Battalion Commander passed sentenced he would hear any mitigation which his Company Commander would want the C.O. to hear. Company Commanders were always supportive of their own men, hoping always to deal with discipline matters within his Company but when his powers were restricted and an offence had to be referred to the C.O. he would be there at the Battalion Orders and would not hesitate to speak up for his man when he felt he should and there was justification. In Rifle Companies there was always very close rapport between officers, NCOS and men which I missed when I was appointed to the Commanding's Officer Staff as his Intelligence Officer.Joe
Click to expand...

Hi Joe, would I be right then to say with two offences one being serious 10days CB was a tough sentence? From your experience,
did It make the man tow the line after he served his sentence and make he a better soldier..... Doing Jankers must have been
humiliating for him it must have broken some men and possibly made others stronger.
I've tried to google the Ref codes but it only gives a broad outline and is not specific.

Regards

Lotus7

Joe Brown · Aug 1, 2014

Lotus7.

Not really. These were not 'crimes' to be judged in civil terms but degrees of military dismeanors. We were at War, and in the general scheme of things of little serious import. We all, to some degree, rebelled against unnecessary restrictions - even officers - as at heart, we were 'civilian soldiers' doing what we could to defend our country and thereby our loved-ones and not seeking a career.

Joe

Lotus7 · Aug 1, 2014

Joe Brown said:

Lotus7.
Not really. These were not 'crimes' to be judged in civil terms but degrees of military dismeanors. We were at War, and in the general scheme of things of little serious import. We all, to some degree, rebelled against unnecessary restrictions - even officers - as at heart, we were 'civilian soldiers' doing what we could to defend our country and thereby our loved-ones and not seeking a career.
Joe
Click to expand...

Thanks for the insight Joe, I've learnt so much, hope you did not mind me asking so many Q's, the wealth of knowledge the forum has is
Invaluable and your help has been excellent . I may never know exactly what the order the man disobeyed to up set the CO but it's
been a help to me to understand what went on at that time. Once again a big thank you to you and the forum.

Regards

Lotus7

Joe Brown · Aug 1, 2014

Lotus7:

I should have mentioned that disobedience or neglect to carry out orders was always a serious crime, especially when you were engaged in fighting the enemy and your conduct jeopardised the safety of your comrades. Inevitably and rightly a Court-martial offence.

Great being in touch.

Regards,

Joe

dbf · Aug 1, 2014

Lotus7
This, perhaps, is an example of the difficulties encountered when trying to work out what might lie behind the bare facts on a sheet of paper.

Dad had been a Cpl Instructor at Lingfield with his two best friends, before their battalion embarked for Normandy in June 44. He lost his stripes for refusing to obey an order when in either Belgium or Holland.

He had been ordered by a Sgt to strike, with a rifle butt, one of the men in his own Section - for being insubordinate. This Sgt was also drunk at the time. When asked if he had anything to say he declined the opportunity with "Nothing to say Sir" and accepted the CO's punishment. Immediately afterwards his Company Commander approached him and told Dad that he was to carry on as Section leader - that is: acting / unpaid. Despite being pleased about the show in confidence by this much-loved, well-respected Major, (who sadly was later killed) my father still wasn't too chuffed at the unpaid bit.

I don't doubt that he chose punishment over reporting another man, as he often admitted to getting away with other matters post hostilities.

Lotus7 · Aug 2, 2014

Hi Guys, what interesting facts and help I've had. There must be hundreds of tails like these all different in there own way but they are
all so personal, and affected the individual in different ways. I suspect most offenders never told there story. I know the man in the example would not say what he had done wrong..... All he did say was " I got Jankers for 10 bloody days". He would never talk about it. Hence me trying to understand and trying to find out what happened at that time. I hope possibly one day, I do find out what he did, that
he could not talk about. Q' is it just possible he felt so silly/embarrassed for what he done by not talking about it avoided criticism ?.

Thanks

Lotus7

Lotus7 · Aug 3, 2014

Joe Brown said:

Lotus7:
I should have mentioned that disobedience or neglect to carry out orders was always a serious crime, especially when you were engaged in fighting the enemy and your conduct jeopardised the safety of your comrades. Inevitably and rightly a Court-martial offence.
Great being in touch.
Regards,
Joe
Click to expand...

Hi Joe,
Have sent you a PM.

Regards

Lotus7

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