Naughty Boy, You're Confined to Barracks

Discussion in 'Service Records' started by Lotus7, Jul 30, 2014.

  1. Lotus7

    Lotus7 Well-Known Member

    Hi guys, hope some one can help me understand what the procedure in WW2 for an offence committed while in the UK at training camp, barracks ect. How would the offender be approach for not obeying an order given, what would have been the "Court" procedure, and would he not only loose privileges would he loose any pay? Do the MOD still keep offences records.

    Example....
    Awarded 10 days CB by CO offences:(i) Failing to appear on a parade (ii) disobeying a lawful command
    Given by his superior officer, sec.15(2) & 9(2)AA in the UK.

    Given the number of men getting ready for D Day there must have been many men who where put on a
    Charge for offences committed.

    Regards

    Lotus7
     
  2. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    The normal procedure probably went like this: the offender was brought before his Commanding Officer. I think he would have been asked if he were willing to accept the CO's punishment or if he would want a C-M. If the timing was before the Normandy invasion, then the option of C-M would have probably meant missing embarking with his unit.

    Confined to barracks at that point - well, by the time units reached the south coast & the staging camps during the immediate run-up to 6 June, the men were already facing strict security conditions... no leave, no letter writing.


    One account from pre-invasion time, failing to obey & field punishment:



    http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/51315-market-garden-normandy/
     
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  3. Lotus7

    Lotus7 Well-Known Member

    Very interesting read, thanks for that. The offence in the example happened in March '44 poss' at Broadstairs or Seven Oaks before dispatching for D Day. Could there still be a record of the charge?

    Regards

    Lotus7
     
  4. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    There'd obviously be a note in service records. I take it you already have them since you have quoted the charges and the punishment meted out, so I don't understand what you mean by 'record of the charge' ..?
    There'd not be any transcript etc if that's what you mean. Since this would be at Bn level I can't think of anything else that would have survived - unless the Regt kept 'charge books' in their archives, which would likely be no more than is in service records.
    This was all comparatively routine/formulaic stuff for a CO.
    Charge?
    Anything to say?
    Will you accept my punishment?
     
  5. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran Patron

  6. Lotus7

    Lotus7 Well-Known Member

    What am trying find out if poss' what was the superior officer's Order that was given and ignored in part(ii) as part (i) is self explanatory, and if they related to each other. May be it was nothing that serious it warranted noting. Thanks for your help it's very useful.

    Regards

    Lotus7
     
  7. redtop

    redtop Well-Known Member

    Hi Lotus 7
    I posted this snippet from my Fathers Journals elsewhere on the site but will rehash it as I think it helps answer your question.
    He also got fined a days pay. The punishment (Field) and fine went on his service record.

    We were in a park surrounded by a brick wall, guarded around the outside and we were getting very restless and finally we got a weekend pass. Our Troop (Mercers), one of the two of G Battery 5 RHA was made up of Londoners, Geordies and Scots and had been together since I joined up in 1940.
    The Battery strength was about 72 strong .7 men on each tank or SP (Self Propelled Gun) A Troop 4 Guns B troop the same Plus HQ. Fitters, stores personnel and a Honey observation Tank.

    A weekend pass was not enough,
    (We had a good Knowledge of what we were about, but no talking)
    We knew, so I took additional days (AWOL) my mate Jock went to Scotland. And others took additional days, but we all returned to be grabbed by the Redcaps.
    We were marched in front of a new CO. Three at a time.
    “You will take my punishment;”
    “I order seven days field punishment.”
    I think that out of 72 some 40 went on the parade.
    It was May extremely hot, in full kit, Overcoat, valise, backpack, rifle, ammunition and kitbag with your personal gear. Rifle above your head. Right turn, left turn, double, about turn, and as one Sergeant got tired another took over, that went on from 5 AM.
    The following day the Redcaps that had “Brought us in “came and told the CO. That Field Punishment had been banned so we got Jankers. We could not go out anyway.
     
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  8. Lotus7

    Lotus7 Well-Known Member

    Thanks Redtop, another good read, I've heard the term Jankers before never knew what it meant until now so thanks for that. It must
    have been a scary time not knowing where or what you where going into, so for some it was a bit of "fun" before they went, and risk
    the consequences if they got caught.

    Regards

    Lotus7.
     
  9. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Ron mentions some being treated with more leniency than others. Often down to the entertainment level of their 'excuse'. My Dad's mate spoke with a very bad lisp and according to him Sammy was 'always getting away with it'. One of many similar stories...

     
  10. Lotus7

    Lotus7 Well-Known Member

    Thanks dbf, another good read, very amusing if you read it again putting in the lisp. It does seem the punishment was depending on
    who was in charge and the individual concern and of course the "crime" committed. At this moment I've not found any record for my
    Example, but it's interesting finding out others stories.

    Regards

    Lotus7.
     
  11. Joe Brown

    Joe Brown WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    In an infantry battalion, minor military misdemeanours, like dirty equipment or late on parade, would be dealt by the the Company Commander. More serious disciplinary offences, like absent without leave, would be referred to the Battalion Commander.

    Officers at OCTU would be required to study the Manual of Military Law and would receive instruction on the procedure to be followed in holding 'Orderly Rooms'. The Company Sergeant Major would March in the accused, first having ordered him to removed head dress and web belt. At Battalion Orders it would be the RSM. It was thought these might be used if the accused turned aggressive and decided to swipe the officer with his hat and cap badge or take a swing at him with his web belt! We were also advised to make sure there was distance between where the accused would stand and the officer's desk, in case it could be pushed over on top of the officer!

    The one golden rule was that the accused's conduct sheet was never produced to the Company Commander or the Battalion Commander until a verdict had been announced. If 'guilty' then the conduct sheet would be considered by the officer before deciding on the punishment.

    Appropriately, the Pipe Call used in The Royal Scots to summon those appearing at the Commanding Orders was "A Man's a Man for A' That! " . . . No matter, what the offence, he was a Royal Scot.

    Joe Brown
     
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  12. Lotus7

    Lotus7 Well-Known Member

    Many thanks Joe for an excellent explanation, I'm now beginning to understand the way in which things where done. Would I be
    correct in saying the Ref quotes relate to the "crime" committed?. Also could the offender loose there good conduct stripe? If the
    Offence was minor or not....... All very interesting thanks to all who replied.

    Regards

    Lotus7
     
  13. Joe Brown

    Joe Brown WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Lotus7:

    A military offence that could possibly lead to the removal of a Good Conduct Stripe would be referred to the Battalion Commander. Of course, the 'charge' on AB252 had to be proved and witnesses would be questioned but frequently the offender would admit to the charge but before the Battalion Commander passed sentenced he would hear any mitigation which his Company Commander would want the C.O. to hear. Company Commanders were always supportive of their own men, hoping always to deal with discipline matters within his Company but when his powers were restricted and an offence had to be referred to the C.O. he would be there at the Battalion Orders and would not hesitate to speak up for his man when he felt he should and there was justification. In Rifle Companies there was always very close rapport between officers, NCOS and men which I missed when I was appointed to the Commanding's Officer Staff as his Intelligence Officer.

    Joe
     
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  14. Lotus7

    Lotus7 Well-Known Member

    Hi Joe, would I be right then to say with two offences one being serious 10days CB was a tough sentence? From your experience,
    did It make the man tow the line after he served his sentence and make he a better soldier..... Doing Jankers must have been
    humiliating for him it must have broken some men and possibly made others stronger.
    I've tried to google the Ref codes but it only gives a broad outline and is not specific.

    Regards

    Lotus7
     
  15. Joe Brown

    Joe Brown WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Lotus7.

    Not really. These were not 'crimes' to be judged in civil terms but degrees of military dismeanors. We were at War, and in the general scheme of things of little serious import. We all, to some degree, rebelled against unnecessary restrictions - even officers - as at heart, we were 'civilian soldiers' doing what we could to defend our country and thereby our loved-ones and not seeking a career.

    Joe
     
  16. Lotus7

    Lotus7 Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the insight Joe, I've learnt so much, hope you did not mind me asking so many Q's, the wealth of knowledge the forum has is
    Invaluable and your help has been excellent . I may never know exactly what the order the man disobeyed to up set the CO but it's
    been a help to me to understand what went on at that time. Once again a big thank you to you and the forum.


    Regards

    Lotus7
     
  17. Joe Brown

    Joe Brown WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Lotus7:

    I should have mentioned that disobedience or neglect to carry out orders was always a serious crime, especially when you were engaged in fighting the enemy and your conduct jeopardised the safety of your comrades. Inevitably and rightly a Court-martial offence.

    Great being in touch.

    Regards,

    Joe
     
  18. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Lotus7
    This, perhaps, is an example of the difficulties encountered when trying to work out what might lie behind the bare facts on a sheet of paper.

    Dad had been a Cpl Instructor at Lingfield with his two best friends, before their battalion embarked for Normandy in June 44. He lost his stripes for refusing to obey an order when in either Belgium or Holland.

    He had been ordered by a Sgt to strike, with a rifle butt, one of the men in his own Section - for being insubordinate. This Sgt was also drunk at the time. When asked if he had anything to say he declined the opportunity with "Nothing to say Sir" and accepted the CO's punishment. Immediately afterwards his Company Commander approached him and told Dad that he was to carry on as Section leader - that is: acting / unpaid. Despite being pleased about the show in confidence by this much-loved, well-respected Major, (who sadly was later killed) my father still wasn't too chuffed at the unpaid bit.

    I don't doubt that he chose punishment over reporting another man, as he often admitted to getting away with other matters post hostilities. :D
     
  19. Lotus7

    Lotus7 Well-Known Member

    Hi Guys, what interesting facts and help I've had. There must be hundreds of tails like these all different in there own way but they are
    all so personal, and affected the individual in different ways. I suspect most offenders never told there story. I know the man in the example would not say what he had done wrong..... All he did say was " I got Jankers for 10 bloody days". He would never talk about it. Hence me trying to understand and trying to find out what happened at that time. I hope possibly one day, I do find out what he did, that
    he could not talk about. Q' is it just possible he felt so silly/embarrassed for what he done by not talking about it avoided criticism ?.

    Thanks

    Lotus7
     
  20. Lotus7

    Lotus7 Well-Known Member

    Hi Joe,
    Have sent you a PM.

    Regards

    Lotus7
     

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